Brasília at Midnight • Hacker News Board

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#51

Post by andrenth » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:18 PM UTC

rafaelferreira wrote: post #34

As another Brazillian, let me offer an attempt at a more distanced take on the matter. Roussef's impeachment proceedings are motivated by alleged budget manipulation. I don't think there are many who would say the maneuvers in question were 100% kosher, but the question of whether it is a sound basis for impeaching an elected president is not a simple one. Renowned legal scholars differ on this point. In particular,…

> the question of whether it is a sound basis for impeaching an elected president is not a simple one. Renowned legal scholars differ on this point.

The fiscal responsibility law is a thing. Governors and mayors have been taken down from office for much less.

These "renowned scholars" that you mention are all tied to the workers party so their views are absolutely biased. Even the Bar order of Brazil, knowingly left leaning and pro-workers party has declared support for impeachment.

> In all, a complex scenario that does not bode well for the immediate future of the Brazilllian democracy.

How come? This is democracy in action. The law and the constitution are being followed to the letter.

Did Collor's impeachment undermine our democracy?

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#52

Post by andrenth » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:24 PM UTC

brbrodude wrote: post #33

hackernews2000 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet people are conditioned in schools to love the state and hate the "all evil" capitalism. In Brazil it's political suicide to suggest cutting government expenses such as bloated programs and agencies (even though they are known to be infested by corruption). People are hit hard by our extremely high taxes but don't make the connection to the government inefficacy and corruption. They keep asking for more government…

Perfect reading and reproduction of the market-fundamentalist-pamphlet! Who are you to call anyone brainwashed? Talking in truisms, uncharitable to any disagreeing point of view, turning anyone who opposes your points of view into caricatures. Give me a break.

Your reply is a good fit for that caricature though. No substance, not a single argument to oppose his points. Is anything said by the parent false?

All you did was giving an angry retort.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#53

Post by andrenth » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:26 PM UTC

meira wrote: post #37

brbrodude wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfect reading and reproduction of the market-fundamentalist-pamphlet! Who are you to call anyone brainwashed? Talking in truisms, uncharitable to any disagreeing point of view, turning anyone who opposes your points of view into caricatures. Give me a break.

It's funny how idiots here in Brazil thinks that the neoliberalism BS is a serious econômica thesis. Parent post probably studied in a federal university, but hates "big bad state".

The fact that you use the "neoliberal" card on disagreeing opinions and resort to ad hominem attacks shows how deep you understanding of economics is.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#54

Post by woliveirajr » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:27 PM UTC

geezerjay wrote: post #22

olh wrote: post #3

This article is spot on. There is an important detail that sounds like conspiracy theory and that bothers me as a brazilian: much of the extent of the economical crisis was orchestrated with propaganda by sectors of our society engulfed in corruption charges (from briberies to tax evasion) after the global drop in commodities prices and suddenly investments halted by market fear and a real crisis took place (and then…

> There was a common headline at the time in newspapers: "apesar da crise", meaning "even though in a crisis", followed by the report of a new market/business sector record in profits. A couple of months ago in a conversation with a Brazilian colleague of mine, who has been living in europe for some years now, the subject of Brazil's crisis popped up. He told me that, at least when compared with the economic crisis e…

Your colleague is wrong. Deeply wrong. Crisis happens when unemployment is high (but government hides it, saying that anyone who is getting some governmental support isn't unemployed. And when prices rise. And when controlled prices are low against all the world market just to pump popularity...

There are so many wrong and deceptive comments here, at news.y, that it really makes me sad about how much illusion was sold in those 12 years of PT government, and how many years and generations it'll take to fix this up.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#55

Post by woliveirajr » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:27 PM UTC

geezerjay wrote: post #22

olh wrote: post #3

This article is spot on. There is an important detail that sounds like conspiracy theory and that bothers me as a brazilian: much of the extent of the economical crisis was orchestrated with propaganda by sectors of our society engulfed in corruption charges (from briberies to tax evasion) after the global drop in commodities prices and suddenly investments halted by market fear and a real crisis took place (and then…

> There was a common headline at the time in newspapers: "apesar da crise", meaning "even though in a crisis", followed by the report of a new market/business sector record in profits. A couple of months ago in a conversation with a Brazilian colleague of mine, who has been living in europe for some years now, the subject of Brazil's crisis popped up. He told me that, at least when compared with the economic crisis e…

Your colleague is wrong. Deeply wrong. Crisis happens when unemployment is high (but government hides it, saying that anyone who is getting some governmental support isn't unemployed. And when prices rise. And when controlled prices are low against all the world market just to pump popularity...

There are so many wrong and deceptive comments here, at news.y, that it really makes me sad about how much illusion was sold in those 12 years of PT government, and how many years and generations it'll take to fix this up.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#56

Post by andrenth » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

brbrodude wrote: post #50

brguy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I can't see how being pro free markets is being anti intellectual. Using myself as an example, I used to believe government intervention was usually a good thing if done right. But then this whole mess happened in Brazil and I started to actually study economics to understand what was going on, and that changed my view completely.

Economics is not the only issue at play in this whole thing, there's a lot more. This talk of "state worship", "school indoctrination", plus the all sorts of mcarthism, left-dehumanizing(also important to note: center-left) and etc is 100% pure authoritharianism. If you're capable of being charitable to different arguments, seeing the nuances, recognizing the valid points someone from another point-of-view can provid…

State worshipping and school/university indoctrination are very real things in Brazil, though.

The center-left that you mention is demonized as "neoliberals" by the extreme left here, so I'm not really sure what your point is about that.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#57

Post by brguy » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

brbrodude wrote: post #50

brguy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I can't see how being pro free markets is being anti intellectual. Using myself as an example, I used to believe government intervention was usually a good thing if done right. But then this whole mess happened in Brazil and I started to actually study economics to understand what was going on, and that changed my view completely.

Economics is not the only issue at play in this whole thing, there's a lot more. This talk of "state worship", "school indoctrination", plus the all sorts of mcarthism, left-dehumanizing(also important to note: center-left) and etc is 100% pure authoritharianism. If you're capable of being charitable to different arguments, seeing the nuances, recognizing the valid points someone from another point-of-view can provid…

Well, I do think Brazil has a serious problem with state worship and school indoctrination. I can't remember being exposed to any sort of liberal economics thinking when I was at school or in college. Many of my colleagues never really questioned the ideas they learned, and some of them deepened them during their college years. I don't think that pointing this out as a problem is dehumanizing nor authoritarian. For one, I'm completely against the "Escola sem Partido" project, because it is actually authoritarian and limits freedom of speech.

I do agree, though, that many people with right wing ideals dehumanize progressives, but those are more linked with the conservative and religious right than with libertarian or classical liberal ideals.

I consider myself a classical liberal and when exposing my views to left wing people have been called a fascist and many other adjectives that actually are dehumanizing and are the extreme opposite of what I believe in. I just don't care when people say that, because it just shows they don't have a clue of what my ideals are about and don't even care to listen.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#58

Post by brguy » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:36 PM UTC

forinti wrote: post #49

brguy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She only gave in to "austerity" after the federal government financial situation became unsustainable. Even then, the spending cuts were minimal. The economy was already slowing down in 2011, and Roussef's government lowered interest rates and started giving subsidies to certain sectors and companies in order to stimulate economic activity. Some economists said this was a bad idea with potential disastrous consequenc…

Exactly, austerity was applied only on the demand side (social spending and infrastructure), but the problem was precisely the demand side. The private sector didn't need more loans or tax cuts, they needed customers and profits.

Most of the budget is fixed by law, so those were pretty much the only areas where costs could be cut. Social and infrastructure spending was actually record high before the crisis hit, so to say everything was caused by austerity is misleading.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#59

Post by andrenth » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:37 PM UTC

meira wrote: post #39

andrenth wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ermmm.. defense opportunity? Yes. Multiple opportunities for the defense to expose its views and interview witnesses, both in congress and senate. > A totally partisan-biased Supreme Court The majority of the current Supreme Court has been appointed by in the Lula and Dilma governments and are strongly tied to their party, including a former lawyer of a party member who is now in jail. If there's any bias, it's in…

The defense had N opportunities to proof (and they proved) that Rousseff didn't commit any crime. But it doesn't matter, because it's not a real judgement. It's a theatrical judgement for stupid guys like you to have a justificativa. But yeah, no stupid personagens believe it. It was a coup. And I should have Said, in the beginning, first thing: Temer out.

Thanks for the ad hominem, it shows the depth of your arguments.

LOL at "Temer out". This is really all that you people know how to do, right? "Itamar out", "FHC out", "Temer out"... It's only a coup attempt when it turns against you.

Re: Brasília at Midnight

#60

Post by andrenth » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 3:38 PM UTC

ucaetano wrote: post #31

andrenth wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were multuple appeals to the Supreme Court, which has always let the process continue. And in senate, the president of the Supreme Court leads the final judgement.

Those are recourses claiming the process itself is wrong, but the impeachment isn't judged by the Supreme Court. And remember, 8 of the 11 judges were appointed by Dilma's party. So if you'd expect bias, it would be towards supporting Dilma.

Yep, that's what I said above.