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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you based? I'm in London and it's gotten so bad for me I only apply direct now so I can ask for a specific number that I would like. I no longer take calls or reply to external recruiters because so far they all tell me they won't proceed unless I tell them my precious salary despite myselr having told them what I want to make in the new role. Even if the company is willing to pay what I want they insist on…

London also. I'm not a recent graduate though, and I only do contract roles.

Have any advice on getting started in contracting in the UK?

Currently working for a medium-sized company in the NW but open to moving.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing unique or special about being a programmer. Really? Take 1000 programmers and try to teach them skills nurses have. How many will be able to do the job well enought to be able to work at the hospitals? Now take 1000 nurses and try to teach them skills programmers have. Is the number suitable for profession work at sowftware companies be the same, as in the first case? You can claim, that there is n…

I am a developer and have a very close friend who is a nurse. I am pretty sure I could teach her enough to do an entry level web dev job within 2-3 months, whereas there is no way I would be mentally or emotionally prepared to deal with working life as a 'real' nurse within that short amount of time, if ever.

I couldn't agree with you more that nursing is a tough job that deserves excellent pay (though out here in SF, registered nurses do earn more, at the median, than software application developers, though this is a bit unusual and not the case in most areas). It would take a tremendous amount of time, training, and effort to turn a software developer into a registered nurse, no doubt.

I am pretty bummed to hear a developer speak so dismissively of what it takes to be developer. I'm not sure what you mean about an "entry level" web job, of course - if "entry level" entails no background or skills, then I suppose I could prepare someone in no time at all.

However - and I fully acknowledge this is just anecdote - after 15+ years in the field, I have yet to see the mythical simple CRUD app. I came into this field after a major in math with a CS emphasis and a MS in Industrial Engineering, during which I wrote a lot of code for various numerical analysis problems. I've written apps that need to build and solve linear programs with a few million variables and communicate results to analysis within one minute, which we felt was the maximum amount of time anyone would wait for an interactive tool designed to explore multiple supply chain scenarios. It is hardly a work of genius, but these were real CS and math problems, with a dose of programming optimization.

In many ways, those projects were considerably easier than the "CRUD" projects I've been on. Seriously. You have to gather business requirements from people who do understand their business, but aren't accustomed to explaining it in a way that works within the strict confines of computer code. You often have to work with existing code bases, deciding how much customization you can get away with before forking yourself into a maintenance hell (and you have to deal with that maintenance hell). You have to integrate with many different data sources, back and forth, over networks, many of which are obscure, poorly documented, and poorly maintained. You are pressured to provide estimates and deadlines for systems that you have no idea about (how long will it take me to alter a code base for an existing application to integrate with a data source that I haven't studied yet? Uh, a week?). You have to weave through existing data structures, code bases that involve intricate logic, uncover magic documents that nobody told you about, interview and talk to business analysts, test, design UIs or work with UI people... and often encounter an (at best) irritated look when you didn't meet your "estimates" that turned into deadlines.

I maintain that even the "simple CRUD" projects are difficult, stressful, and require a very high level of logic, coding ability, and the ability to communicate will with people at many levels of an organization.

If you truly believe that web dev is simple, of course you have every right to make that point. You shouldn't back of from saying what you think is the truth just because the truth is harmful to the reputation of developers.

What pains me is that I absolutely don't agree with you, I think it's a really hard job, and I think we developers really hurt ourselves when we trivialize our jobs this way.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are certainly problems with unions, but they have definitely succeeded in raising pay for their members.

Those that still have jobs. Employers commonly reduce the number of jobs available when those jobs become more expensive.

[deleted]

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#774
post #264

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> Nobody is stopping engineers from saying "I'm going to contribute $1.5m to your bottom line this next year, I want you to pay me $1.4m", but they'll be shown the door because there's a guy that's willing to contribute the same $1.5m in exchange for $100k in compensation. No, the reason you don't get that salary is because you need to discount for the risk that you don't deliver $1.5m. Realistically, you just could…

How did you come to that conclusion? All thing being equal why shouldn't you pick the 100k guy?

All things are never equal.

Even assuming that you had an identical prior on the two candidates, the information that one person was willing to do a job for half price would make me doubt his intelligence.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#775

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

> engineers need their fair share. They are the one creating things, they are the one on the front line and we should not get satiated by the crumbles we are left with. This, 10x and especially for programmers coming for 2nd/3rd world countries, whom are even more unaware of the value they're creating and settle with way less. Obviously, it's easy to say this and it often doesn't help you get your foot in the door wh…

We used to joke that people with naïve pictures of Africa in their heads, expected to see wild life immediately after stepping off the plane. I believe the image you have is somewhat more nuanced, but still could do with some work. We are very aware we are generating value which we are not capturing. I've heard AWS CT devs complaining about receiving less than half the total comp as their US peers. We just don't have much leverage.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this: employees are at a huge information disadvantage. However, I think a better (& admittedly more radical) solution to this problem would be to force employers to publicly post anonymized salaries by job title. That way prospective and current employees know exactly how much they ought to be paid. It makes salary negotiation almost trivial. Preventing employers from asking about previous salary does n…

How about we go one step further and make all salaries public information?

I'm not sure why you'd want to do that. It seems unnecessary to achieve pricing transparency - anonymized salaries would be sufficient. It would require a dramatic cultural shift to be accepted. Discussing of one's salary is taboo (at least in the U.S.).

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#777
post #549
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as not everyone has eg an iPhone, I see plenty of demand for tech left.

No. People who don't have an iPhone either have a different smartphone (their demand is owned by Apple's competition), they can't afford a smartphone (they're not a source of demand — until someone innovates and makes a cheaper smartphone), or they've actively chosen not to own a smartphone (not a source of demand).

You said:

> Tech has saturated the existing market, there is no demand to be satisfied for more tech.

Of course, if you mean at current prices, then sure: everybody who wants and can buy at current prices will do so.

Still, demand is very elastic. Even with current tech, there's lots and lots more demand at slightly lower prices. Companies can just wait until their capital investments have deprecated a bit more, and then lower prices a bit.

(You also want to keep prices high initially, even if costs would allow to go lower and still break even, to capture the higher willingness of some people to pay more to get your product sooner. Basic price discrimination.)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#778
post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between a tech lead and an engineer?

At most companies tech lead means someone who is planning the technical work of a team, but is not the manager. The tech lead is an engineer. So that company has separated manager and tech leadership. Google works this way. There are some groups at google where someone does both tech lead and manager, they call that person the TLM.

Thanks. I know about that but was not separating tech leads from other engineers. (To me they are just more senior engineers.)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#779
post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you come to that conclusion? All thing being equal why shouldn't you pick the 100k guy?

All things are never equal. Even assuming that you had an identical prior on the two candidates, the information that one person was willing to do a job for half price would make me doubt his intelligence.

So you always go for the guy who requests the highest salary?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> engineers need their fair share. They are the one creating things, they are the one on the front line and we should not get satiated by the crumbles we are left with. This, 10x and especially for programmers coming for 2nd/3rd world countries, whom are even more unaware of the value they're creating and settle with way less. Obviously, it's easy to say this and it often doesn't help you get your foot in the door wh…

We used to joke that people with naïve pictures of Africa in their heads, expected to see wild life immediately after stepping off the plane. I believe the image you have is somewhat more nuanced, but still could do with some work. We are very aware we are generating value which we are not capturing. I've heard AWS CT devs complaining about receiving less than half the total comp as their US peers. We just don't have…

I am kind of in the same boat, I also tend to settle with less. My point is to push that leverage to its limits, many don t do that.
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