Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas • Hacker News Board

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#71

Post by jdimov10 » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

blubb-fish wrote: post #66

jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

That says something about you. But in general a lot of people act self-less in favor of a person they love.

Yea, it says that I'm awesome :)

Come on, how can you possibly call this "self-less"?? If you're doing something for someone you love, it's because you love them. That's the ultimate good-feeling. You're doing it to feel good, period. I hate people who do things like this and then say "I acted selflessly for you". No, you didn't, you moron. You acted as selfish as can be. Now, thank you very much for doing what you did for me, but don't EVER expect me to pay you back in any form, or to thank you, or to even acknowledge what you did, because then there wasn't anything selfless about it, was there?

If you love someone and you've done something for them, good for you. Yay. Move on.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#72

Post by jdmichal » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #65

jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

It seems like this point of view is unassailable because for every example that, in regular understanding, would be selfless behaviour, the definition of self-interest is stretched to encompass it. - Anonymous philanthropy => feelings of self worth - Low reward public service (Mother Theresa) => fame and influence - Parents sacrificing personal good for kids => some kind of evolutionary advantage - Falling on a grena…

Another viewpoint: Did Mother Theresa perform her acts for fame and influence? Or did she receive fame and influence for performing the acts that she would have performed anyway? It just so happens that people like being helped, and will generally feel friendly and helpful to those who help them. Do this enough, and you'll end up with a pretty large sphere of influence, even if that was not ever a goal.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#73

Post by jontas » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

5xman wrote: post #40

Dylan16807 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Passing such moral judgements based on the diet of a species Causing harm to social intelligent species, such as by eating them, is objective. In theory another species could eat plants and also attack mammals for fun all the time. That species would also be assholes. This isn't a judgement based on 'diet', it's a judgement based on how they interact with others. > since they protect those seals and sea lions That'…

(Please, excuse my english) I think I agree with you 100% based on what I think your comment reveals about your ideas. The point I was trying to make is that it's too often that we judge animal behavior based on our mental constructs, when I think it makes no sense at all even for the most intelligent of the animal species. Somebody pointed out that we are not so different from animals, and so it shouldn't be a big s…

Your english is perfect, nothing to excuse.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#74

Post by jdmichal » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:24 PM UTC

allendoerfer wrote: post #69

Tosh108 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does believing in an emotion mean? Egotism is arguably no more real then altruism. If your "reward in the brain" statement is correct why is that egotism? If that reward system drives a father to kills himself for his child that's not very egotistic. Why in a biological system would the "self" be preferred above the larger picture? This is definitely not argued in evolutionary theory. In the end it's very much c…

I don't believe that people do altruistic things, because on a biological level we do stuff, because we like the feeling in our brain, therefore we do it for ourself, which is egotistic. Truly altruistic would be something we just do without any benefit for ourself. I just argued that this only exists on a philosophical level, not on a biological level, so I don't believe in the concept unless we agree to treat the b…

So do you believe in free will at all? Or is everything just a deterministic chemical cascade of inputs and outputs, in which case the answer to all this discussion is "mu". [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#75

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:24 PM UTC

jdimov10 wrote: post #67

ceejayoz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_on_a_grenade

That's called being an idiot. Your government has brainwashed you into thinking of such acts as noble and courageous. They are not. Acts like this do not deserve admiration or respect. Encouraging this in the name of "patriotism" is beyond despicable. But to get back to the point, as an individual, the only reason you would do something like this is because you feel better knowing that you have sacrificed your life t…

I suspect people fall on grenades more to save their friends in the blast zone than some ideal of patriotism. There are cases not involving military/combat as well, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Oates.

You appear to have constructed a weird, intentionally specifically narrow definition of altruism as a strawman. Congratulations on slaying it.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#76

Post by kbenson » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:28 PM UTC

Tosh108 wrote: post #46

SeanDav wrote: post #13

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales a…

The books by Frans de Waal about this topic are very interesting. He's a dutch ethologist, researching the social behaviour and emotions of animals, mainly primates I think. Some of his quotes, source Wikipedia: "To endow animals with human emotions has long been a scientific taboo. But if we do not, we risk missing something fundamental, about both animals and us." "In chimpanzees and other animals, you see examples…

> "Dogs are a good example of a species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores."

Well, that was a good reason why we initially liked them, but the last few millennia of genetic modification through selective breeding to alter their behavior and appearance for our benefit hasn't hurt either...

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#77

Post by hx87 » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Tosh108 wrote: post #42

It's interesting that we have such a hard time accepting the emotion of altruism both in humans and animals. The author of the articles states: "could just be revenge". Revenge is in many ways more senseless then altruism for evolutionary purposes (unless you directly attack killer whales that threaten you, but one could argue that that's a form of self-defence), but from our ego perspective it feels more intuitive,…

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

You seem to be constructing a definition of altruism that isn't just practically impossible, but /theoretically/ impossible for anyone to meet, since you can always say "Oh, but they're /actually/ doing it for their own benefit!" Such a definition is unfalsifiable (akin to conspiracy theories) and thus not terribly useful.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#78

Post by HelloMcFly » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

mrob wrote: post #3

There's an interesting video of a humpback whale being freed from a net: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcXU7G6zhjU We don't know for sure if it really is showing appreciation at the end, but humpback whales are social animals so IMO it's plausible. It certainly makes a big effort at breaching despite being trapped for a long time and despite there being no other whales nearby. Why would it do that if it's not tryin…

Probably scratching a large number of itches it developed while stuck in the net. But, it's a win for everyone either way.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#79

Post by blubb-fish » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:33 PM UTC

jdimov10 wrote: post #71

blubb-fish wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That says something about you. But in general a lot of people act self-less in favor of a person they love.

Yea, it says that I'm awesome :) Come on, how can you possibly call this "self-less"?? If you're doing something for someone you love, it's because you love them. That's the ultimate good-feeling. You're doing it to feel good, period. I hate people who do things like this and then say "I acted selflessly for you". No, you didn't, you moron. You acted as selfish as can be. Now, thank you very much for doing what you d…

Well - of course there has to be some charge somewhere in your brain build up before you do anything. But your reasoning is essentially just playing with words - b/c of course if you do something for somebody b/c you love them, then you do what you do B/C you love them ... well.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#80

Post by hx87 » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 3:33 PM UTC

jdimov10 wrote: post #67

ceejayoz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_on_a_grenade

That's called being an idiot. Your government has brainwashed you into thinking of such acts as noble and courageous. They are not. Acts like this do not deserve admiration or respect. Encouraging this in the name of "patriotism" is beyond despicable. But to get back to the point, as an individual, the only reason you would do something like this is because you feel better knowing that you have sacrificed your life t…

If I fall on a grenade, I'm not doing it for my country or some idea of "patriotism". I'm doing it to save my friends.