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Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

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Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#31

Post by Dylan16807 »

5xman wrote: post #26
zipwitch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only some of them. The transient orca are the ones who eat mammals and don't have large social groupings. The resident orca have larger (matriarchal) social groups and don't eat other mammals , just fish. It's always amazing to me that we have multiple intelligent (how intelligent is uncertain), social species right here on our own planet, and we spend such a tiny fraction of our energies as a society trying to commu…

Your comment and the parent really surprise me. Passing such moral judgements based on the diet of a species seems a bit 'youtubish'. Using the same logic one could argue that humpback whales are the real assholes since they protect those seals and sea lions so they can prey on those tiny, little penguins which are the cutest. (Seals even rape them :'( http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141117-why-seals-have-sex-w... )

> Passing such moral judgements based on the diet of a species

Causing harm to social intelligent species, such as by eating them, is objective. In theory another species could eat plants and also attack mammals for fun all the time. That species would also be assholes. This isn't a judgement based on 'diet', it's a judgement based on how they interact with others.

> since they protect those seals and sea lions

That's not the same logic. The same logic might lead you to call seals and sea lions assholes, but it wouldn't extend to the whales.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#32

Post by dragandj »

zipwitch wrote: post #11
transfire wrote: post #7

Everyone knows that Orcas are the assholes of the sea.

Only some of them. The transient orca are the ones who eat mammals and don't have large social groupings. The resident orca have larger (matriarchal) social groups and don't eat other mammals , just fish. It's always amazing to me that we have multiple intelligent (how intelligent is uncertain), social species right here on our own planet, and we spend such a tiny fraction of our energies as a society trying to commu…

Orcas are loners and don't like large social groupings? Hmmm, I think I've found my new favorite animal! :)

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#33

Post by Artoemius »

SeanDav wrote: post #13

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales a…

There's a whole field you might want to study (altruism features there quite prominently): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#34

Post by grondilu »

Some form of brood parasitism, maybe? I mean it is known that orcas hunt whale calves and presumably this involves an instinctive reaction from the adults to the calf's distress signal.

So perhaps various other preys have learnt to imitate this distress call in order to gain protection from what are possibly the only animals in the sea capable of fighting an orca.

Or maybe whales just hate orcas and want them to starve.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#35

Post by glup »

ObeyTheGuts wrote: post #21
SeanDav wrote: post #13

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales a…

So altruism is not genetics? We share like 90% of same genes with whales, and most of rest 10% of different genes have just small difference, separating humans from animals is just simply stupid.

It could also be culturally transmitted

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#37

Post by mark_l_watson »

transfire wrote: post #7

Everyone knows that Orcas are the assholes of the sea.

I have to agree. In about 1977 I was sailing my small sailboat about 20 miles offshore, and about 50 miles north of San Diego. A single large Orca jumped out of the water 4 times right next to my boat, getting higher that the top of my mast, and each time crashing into the water next to my boat, which rocked violently each time. I lay down in the bottom of the cockpit, and fell off the wind a bit so I could steer for several minutes without having to see where I was going.

The whole experience was unnerving.

In comparison, I once had an old grey whale lift its head out of the water within 3 or 4 feet of that boat and it just gazed at me and my friends for a short while before gently lowering itself and moving off. That boat was only 22 feet long and the grey whale seemed like it was being gentle about being near us.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#38

Post by dhimes »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #31
5xman wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment and the parent really surprise me. Passing such moral judgements based on the diet of a species seems a bit 'youtubish'. Using the same logic one could argue that humpback whales are the real assholes since they protect those seals and sea lions so they can prey on those tiny, little penguins which are the cutest. (Seals even rape them :'( http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141117-why-seals-have-sex-w... )

> Passing such moral judgements based on the diet of a species Causing harm to social intelligent species, such as by eating them, is objective. In theory another species could eat plants and also attack mammals for fun all the time. That species would also be assholes. This isn't a judgement based on 'diet', it's a judgement based on how they interact with others. > since they protect those seals and sea lions That'…

In theory another species could eat plants and also attack mammals for fun all the time.

I think I know a species that does that.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#39

Post by gpderetta »

SeanDav wrote: post #13

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales a…

It is also very easy to anthropomorphize human behavior.

With slightly less snark, altruism and other noble sentiments in humans are also likely due to genetics and learned behavior.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#40

Post by 5xman »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #31
5xman wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment and the parent really surprise me. Passing such moral judgements based on the diet of a species seems a bit 'youtubish'. Using the same logic one could argue that humpback whales are the real assholes since they protect those seals and sea lions so they can prey on those tiny, little penguins which are the cutest. (Seals even rape them :'( http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141117-why-seals-have-sex-w... )

> Passing such moral judgements based on the diet of a species Causing harm to social intelligent species, such as by eating them, is objective. In theory another species could eat plants and also attack mammals for fun all the time. That species would also be assholes. This isn't a judgement based on 'diet', it's a judgement based on how they interact with others. > since they protect those seals and sea lions That'…

(Please, excuse my english)

I think I agree with you 100% based on what I think your comment reveals about your ideas. The point I was trying to make is that it's too often that we judge animal behavior based on our mental constructs, when I think it makes no sense at all even for the most intelligent of the animal species. Somebody pointed out that we are not so different from animals, and so it shouldn't be a big stretch to apply our labels to animal behavior. But I think we are so far from animal behavior that it makes it very difficult to analize/understand it without a really big effort and a long time of study. Scientists get very close, but internet comments are too often narrow-minded. Orcas are not 'killers', at least not more than any other predator. They are very intelligent and gregarious, and they eat other animals. Jumping from this to 'they are assholes' was, in my opinion, not called for. In what 'interaction with others' was this based on? I think a real judge would have a hard time trying to distill intent from animal interactions.

Your second point is completely right. But as a matter of fact, I think that both whales, seals, sea lions and all animals in general are all fine gentlemen. I have my doubts about that monkey pulling the legs (literally, and the tails) of two tigers, though.

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