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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

651–660 of 785 posts

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#651

If Hillary wins, you'll also be able to ask about your peers' salary, legally - not sure to what extent of course, probably won't apply if you're asking for a level higher than yours - so that the "glass ceiling" might be broken, meaning women in the same job w/the same quals/experience should make the same as men. My wife found out through a colleague who's a friend of hers as well that he made 10k over her, same ex…

If Obama wins, Guantanamo and CIA blacksites will be shut down.

Oh, wait, presidential candidates' promises aren't worth anything.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#652

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers? What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work? What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer? What about the guys soldering all this crap together? I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or s…

You could be charitable and read OP as making the case that labor in general should capture a greater portion of corporate profits than it does now. I'm sympathetic to your comment, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#653
post #644

Any change to the bargaining process will not fix the gender pay gap, as it is no significant factor. There is an excellent Freakonomics episode about it: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender...

Of course not.

But if feminism can be abused to improve workers' rights in the US, that's good enough, isn't it?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#654

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers? What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work? What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer? What about the guys soldering all this crap together? I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or s…

If you'd do it for free it is probably not real work and you don't deserve to get paid - writers, musicians, hackers, politicians. (runs :)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major difference is trainable skills versus innate talent. The number of people who can be trained/educated to perform the tasks you described above are pretty large. The number of people who can write elegant, concise code is a pretty small pool. It's also important to distinguish between day-day coders who write CRUD apps (trainable skill), and developers who develop platforms that others build on. Another way of l…

There is nothing unique or special about being a programmer. Programmers think they are undervalued and should get more. But guess what, nurses think they should get more as well because they are saving lives. Soldiers think they should get more for making us all safe. Police think they should get more for reducing the level of crime in society which benefits us all. Teachers think they should get more because they a…

  > There is nothing unique or special about being a programmer.
Really? Take 1000 programmers and try to teach them skills nurses have. How many will be able to do the job well enought to be able to work at the hospitals? Now take 1000 nurses and try to teach them skills programmers have. Is the number suitable for profession work at sowftware companies be the same, as in the first case?

You can claim, that there is nothing unique or special in being theoretical physicist. But is that really true?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#656
post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't bring gender into this. You can't say highly technical fields are comparable to customer support. Do you think the receptionists in hospitals should earn the same as doctors?

Serious? There's more to customer support than picking up a phone. I've worked with some very intelligent customer support people who know the product as well as the engineers.

You never put your most technical people on the first line.

And in that vein, I've worked with some very skilled receptionists. But they're not doctors.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't my experience. Only a few recruiters asked and when told "no" they didn't ask why or ask again. Generally you don't want to work for the companies that demand it either.

Where are you based? I'm in London and it's gotten so bad for me I only apply direct now so I can ask for a specific number that I would like. I no longer take calls or reply to external recruiters because so far they all tell me they won't proceed unless I tell them my precious salary despite myselr having told them what I want to make in the new role. Even if the company is willing to pay what I want they insist on…

London also. I'm not a recent graduate though, and I only do contract roles.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#658
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Which is why you should be an owner/competitor versus an employee if you know the business well enough. Uber just lost a war of attrition with Didi Chuxing after throwing a billion dollars at China's taxi market How much attrition can you afford?

The reason is simple: Uber did not know the business well enough, at least not in China.

The reason is simple but absolutely wasn't that: they both subsidized their customers' rides to the tune of a billion dollars in a bid to undercut one another.

As it turns out taxi riders care a lot more about price than they do about the company's cultural sensitivities.

This isn't unusual in the transportation sector. In the 80s UK bus companies would undercut each other in a bid to achieve a monopoly. Some even offered completely free buses in a bid to drive their competitors out of business.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing unique or special about being a programmer. Programmers think they are undervalued and should get more. But guess what, nurses think they should get more as well because they are saving lives. Soldiers think they should get more for making us all safe. Police think they should get more for reducing the level of crime in society which benefits us all. Teachers think they should get more because they a…

> There is nothing unique or special about being a programmer. Really? Take 1000 programmers and try to teach them skills nurses have. How many will be able to do the job well enought to be able to work at the hospitals? Now take 1000 nurses and try to teach them skills programmers have. Is the number suitable for profession work at sowftware companies be the same, as in the first case? You can claim, that there is n…

I am a developer and have a very close friend who is a nurse. I am pretty sure I could teach her enough to do an entry level web dev job within 2-3 months, whereas there is no way I would be mentally or emotionally prepared to deal with working life as a 'real' nurse within that short amount of time, if ever.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, then what does a ditch digger deserve to be paid? The answer is a number.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigr... Labor economists have concluded that undocumented workers have lowered the wages of U.S. adults without a high-school diploma — 25 million of them — by anywhere between 0.4 to 7.4 percent.

This is the paragraph immediately following the sentence you quoted:

> The impact on everyone else, though, is surprisingly positive. Giovanni Peri, an economist at the University of California, Davis, has written a series of influential papers comparing the labor markets in states with high immigration levels to those with low ones. He concluded that undocumented workers do not compete with skilled laborers — instead, they complement them. Economies, as Adam Smith argued in “Wealth of Nations,” work best when workers become specialized and divide up tasks among themselves. Pedro Chan’s ability to take care of routine tasks on a work site allows carpenters and electricians to focus on what they do best. In states with more undocumented immigrants, Peri said, skilled workers made more money and worked more hours; the economy’s productivity grew. From 1990 to 2007, undocumented workers increased legal workers’ pay in complementary jobs by up to 10 percent.

Don't make it look one-sided.

Besides, you didn't tell me what you think a ditch digger should earn, which is what I asked. But that's fine, because you can't tell me, because you don't know. In fact, nobody knows. It is an unanswerable question. Much like determining what someone's "fair share" of taxes or benefits is, or their fair standard of living, it is impossible to determine the income they "deserve." There is no absolute standard for any of these things. The only way to know if someone is being fairly compensated is to compare their income to some kind of absolute standard -- but such a standard does not exist.

In the case of unskilled American workers, maybe their incomes are 0.4-7.4% lower than they would have been in the absence of immigrants. But that by itself does not tell us anything about fairness. Perhaps they were overpaid before the immigrants showed up -- after all, there were other people willing to do the job for less money, so what did the American workers have to offer that justified a higher salary for doing the same work? Again, in the absence of an absolute standard of what their income ought to be, it is impossible to know if they are fairly paid, underpaid, or overpaid.

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