Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay • Hacker News Board

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#131

Post by usaphp » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:53 PM UTC

blahi wrote: post #119

usaphp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you tell me the reason behind you thinking that "100k for a JavaScript engeneer is more than the "fair share"? And why you highlight the word "engeneer"?

Because you can achieve high proficiency rather quickly. Contrast this with engineers who optimize compliers who need much deeper and broader knowledge to make decisions in their day to day work, yet have the same comp. How is this fair? Again, it's a market and it is what it is.

I think there is a flaw in your logic here. You are saying "you can achieve high proficiency rather quickly", but at the same time you are saying that "it's market and it's what it is". Since it's a market - it means there is a high demand in those "JavaScript engineers", and if it's so easy to become proficient then what prevents those "engineers who optimize compilers" to become proficient in JavaScript and compete in that market? Maybe it's not that easy to become somebody who can manage to bring enough value by "just" being a "JavaScript engeneer" for whom employees can pay 100k+ wages?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#132

Post by eldavido » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #58

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

I agree with your explanation but I'd suggest a slightly different way of explaining it.

Labor's price is set in a competitive factor market, just like land or capital. It gets bid up and down by supply and demand. Let's call this "the labor market force".

How much value a person can provide in a given setting depends on a whole range of things including what the employer does (scaled product company vs. body shop), overall management effectiveness, how motivated they are (both themselves and by their employer), their skill level, etc. Let's call this "the company force"

The reason people aren't paid as much as California devs elsewhere has a lot more to do with the "company force" than the "market force". The fact is, most companies who employ developer just don't need great devs. They need people who can develop websites of moderate complexity, keep things going, write line-of-business software, etc., not people who can do original, innovate algorithmic work.

Related, there is no "Developer shortage". There is only a technical talent shortage insofar as dev salaries are getting bid up and the buyers who are getting outbid (mostly smaller startups) are complaining. The good companies are getting exactly who they want.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#133

Post by crdoconnor » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #92

cheald wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nail on the head right here. The price of an employee isn't their MPL, it's no greater than their MPL and is set by how little the next guy is willing to take to do the job. Competitive pressures work to drive down labor prices, too! Nobody is stopping engineers from saying "I'm going to contribute $1.5m to your bottom line this next year, I want you to pay me $1.4m", but they'll be shown the door because there's a g…

> Nobody is stopping engineers from saying "I'm going to contribute $1.5m to your bottom line this next year, I want you to pay me $1.4m", but they'll be shown the door because there's a guy that's willing to contribute the same $1.5m in exchange for $100k in compensation. Which is why you should be an owner/competitor versus an employee if you know the business well enough.

>Which is why you should be an owner/competitor versus an employee if you know the business well enough.

Uber just lost a war of attrition with Didi Chuxing after throwing a billion dollars at China's taxi market

How much attrition can you afford?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#134

Post by mcbits » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

blahi wrote: post #42

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

Sorry, but this is straight up proletariat bull. You get hired, you get paid. If it doesn't pan out, you go somewhere else. You have 0 risk and a guaranteed career. And sorry, but 100k for a javascript "engineer" is more than the "fair share" in my opinion, but it's a market, so it is what it is.

Working as an employee is not without risk. There is the risk that you'll invest 10% or 50% of your productive lifespan in an employer who squanders it all and leaves you jobless without notice instead of an employer who puts your abilities to good use and recognizes the value that you create. The risk is partially mitigated by receiving a paycheck during those wasted years regardless of the employer's competence.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#135

Post by CapitalistCartr » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

dudul wrote: post #14

inlined wrote: post #10

Candidates "may" offer this information upfront? I feel like I'm watching Office Space "Am I supposed to tell you my salary before even hearing your initial offer?" "Some employees choose to offer salary information, and we encourage that"

"We want you to join us for the mission, not for the money. Be a team player and share your salary with us!"

"Yeah, and of course you'll share equity and strategic decision-making with me." Employers, executives, managers all love to move their problems onto the employees.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#136

Post by fecak » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

siculars wrote: post #12

This. Negotiating a compensation package, in general, is asymmetric information warfare. Having to reveal your salary history you may as well not even negotiate. I know so many women who are constantly bit by this and negotiating in general. Here's an idea: compensation agents who negotiate the compensation package on your behalf. Athletes and actors have them, why not everyone else?

I wrote a post a few years ago about agents (https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/09/17/disrupt/) and actually had some people from HN approach me to see if I'd started that service. At the time I hadn't but I'm reconsidering this right now.

I wrote the article in response to the incentives for recruiters being typically seen as driven by the client (hiring firm). The main issue is that recruiters are paid by hiring firms, and agents would be paid by the employee/new hire.

Job seekers seem less likely to pay for a service like this (negotiation). I've provided coaching to many, which usually includes mostly job search and resume advice, and may end with negotiation advice, but I'm typically not approached just for the sake of negotiation help.

Maybe I should advertise that as a separate service.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#137

Post by petepete » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

ajeet_dhaliwal wrote: post #23

This is desperately needed in the UK, the recruiters (external) here won't even let you proceed if you don't reveal it.

Just make sure you add on 15-20%.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#138

Post by pc86 » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:56 PM UTC

DicksenZuider wrote: post #70

blahi wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but this is straight up proletariat bull. You get hired, you get paid. If it doesn't pan out, you go somewhere else. You have 0 risk and a guaranteed career. And sorry, but 100k for a javascript "engineer" is more than the "fair share" in my opinion, but it's a market, so it is what it is.

Prices for goods and services are determined by supply and demand, not by what, "in your opinion", is "fair".

His point is that supply and demand has dictated that engineers who create $1.5M in value are worth approximately $100k. It works both ways.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#139

Post by crdoconnor » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:56 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #125

zenlikethat wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked on a project where management considered developers as pretty much interchangeable and added folks to the team that did more damage than good? If so, do you want to repeat that experience?

My post had the condition of "competent developer". There are certainly some developers that aren't competent. In my experience those developers get weeded out of the industry relatively quickly. This cuts off the bottom of the bell curve leaving most most developers with something close to an average skill set or above. I also won't discount the frictional costs of changing teams. If you take two identical developer…

"There are certainly some developers that aren't competent. In my experience those developers get weeded out of the industry relatively quickly."

That gave me a chuckle.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#140

Post by kls » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:56 PM UTC

siculars wrote: post #12

This. Negotiating a compensation package, in general, is asymmetric information warfare. Having to reveal your salary history you may as well not even negotiate. I know so many women who are constantly bit by this and negotiating in general. Here's an idea: compensation agents who negotiate the compensation package on your behalf. Athletes and actors have them, why not everyone else?

I actually went on an interview once in which they asked for my last pay stub as proof of income. I declined and they said they would have to pass on me. A good portion of my previous income was equity. Granted the equity did not pan out but I was making double that in straight income in the job before it. Anyways I doubled down on their attempt at making the information asymmetrical and told them that they have my asking price and that there would be no negotiations on salary, if I had to hand over that information. I submitted my last check, they came back 20% higher than my previous compensation, at which I doubled my salary requirements from my originally stated requirements to take the position and took a position with their competitor before they even responded. After notifying them I was no longer considering the position, they eventually came back and said they would match my original requirement as they where getting desperate, but honestly at that point the well was poisoned.

Point being you are right it is asymmetric information warfare and they will use it against you, even if you offer them a poison pill like I did.