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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

501–510 of 785 posts

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#501

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers?

What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work?

What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer?

What about the guys soldering all this crap together?

I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or sewage. Or power lines. Or gas stations powered by truck drivers. Or a million other things.

Developers create a portion of a valuable system, they're not water-walking god-kings. I know, I'm one of them--and my code is probably faster and more reliable than a very large proportion of that created in the rest of the industry, but I don't kid myself thinking I'm doing it all by myself or creating something that has a stand-alone value and operates outside of a larger system; we're all cogs and together we make an amazing machine.

I'm glad I can watch Silicon Valley on TV instead of having to live around those characters. Delusions are detrimental.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#502
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 7 figure annual income is setting the affluent definition very high. You can work at Google for a decade and end up a multi-millionaire, with enough money to retire to most places in the US. From your other comment, it seems like you haven't done the analysis on this. Top companies are routinely paying $200k-300k these days. That's enough to save a million dollars over a decade even if you have a family.

>Top companies are routinely paying $200k-300k these days Yup, all four of them - Apple, Facebook, Google, Netflix.

There's a few more companies paying well than that.

But, yes, the limitations of popular knowledge are part of the reason why we wade through lots and lots of applications from people who have absolutely no clue at Google. (The most clueless just haven't heard of the less well-known companies that also pay well.)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#503
post #431
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I am a total loser, but I am not aware of any companies which "routinely" pay $300K for technical positions, not even at the Director level, in the Boston area.

I find in these conversations that some people are talking about salary and others are talking about salary + bonus + stock options. In particular, the stock option portion to me (but YMMV) seems disingenuous. As an example, I'm in the Boston area and ~2 rungs away from a "director" type title, working at a company known to not pay top dollar and without things like stock. It wouldn't take much stock for me to enter…

Google and Facebook etc often give 'restricted stock units', ie stock that vests over time. That's almost as good as cash, since you can sell them anytime after they are vesting.

Stock in startups and options in general are a gamble, of course.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#504
post #276
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I am a total loser, but I am not aware of any companies which "routinely" pay $300K for technical positions, not even at the Director level, in the Boston area.

Because these companies don't exist. Top companies pay SDE3s and tech leads like 300-400k. Medium-sized companies in high cost of living areas pay directors around that much. No one pays engineers that much. Literally no one. Unless you're Norvig or Dijkstra.

What's the difference between a tech lead and an engineer?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#505
post #457
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your math is wrong, or rather irrelevant. The pool of eligible candidates is not fixed. It constantly changes based on the offered compensation and other factors. For example there are plenty of people qualified to do engineering work who aren't working in that field right now for whatever reason, but could be enticed to take an engineering job for enough money.

I disagree, the pool of candidates basically only changes via immigration and as people retrain or teenagers choose different college majors (very slow). > For example there are plenty of people qualified to do engineering work who aren't working in that field right now for whatever reason, but could be enticed to take an engineering job for enough money. Like whom? How can you be qualified to do software engineering…

That's just flat out wrong. I know people who were formerly software developers and who stopped their careers to become stay-at-home parents. If you offered a salary of, let's say, $300K they would be happy to reenter the workforce. It's not that hard to catch back up.

As for past investments in different careers, those are sunk costs and irrelevant to decisions made now.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#506
post #438
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have experienced this as well. Quick story. Before I took this advice, I made the mistake of telling a recruiter my salary, and then the recruiter said, yeah I'm not going to give you a 20K raise. The guys on that team were great and the compensation was actually viable, but it was not a good fit overall. I think any negotiation where you want to walk away with the best deal you have to be willing to let a job go.…

If you don't mind my asking, if you "loved" two of the places you have worked why have you been through four employers in 4-1/2 years? I love my current employer, which is why I have stayed there 19 years.

The tech jobs I've worked have ended roughly thus:

  Company went under
  Short-term contract for specific task
  Department downsized
  Short-term contract for specific task
  Department downsized
  Short-term contract for specific task
  Short-term contract for specific task
I have never quit a job since finishing school. I'd have loved to stay on at several of those places for the rest of my career, but that's not how most of the industry works these days. If you've been able to stay at a job you love for 19 years, you're very lucky.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#507
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so maybe I'm just bad at math. I know that if you make 200k as an engineer in NYC (which is STILL high[1]), you make around 10k a month after taxes. 10k - 2k for rent - 1k for expenses = 7k saved if you don't go on vacation, and literally do nothing that costs money for ten years. Even saving 7k a month, you won't save 100k a year. [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/new-york-city-software-en...

$1k for other 'expenses' is huge. You can drive that down at least by half with wiser spending.

You might want to save, but there's no need to be a total miser on any >100k salary.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#508
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make substantially less than 400k and I assure you that I do not live in a cardboard box. $5k is high for monthly expenses. I rented a single bedroom in Manhattan for $1850 and you can save even more if you're willing to live with roommates. I'm not sure what I can do to convince you I'm not lying, but consider that median household income is less than $100k in both SV and NY. If the average person can get by on Of…

Ok, so maybe I'm just bad at math. I know that if you make 200k as an engineer in NYC (which is STILL high[1]), you make around 10k a month after taxes. 10k - 2k for rent - 1k for expenses = 7k saved if you don't go on vacation, and literally do nothing that costs money for ten years. Even saving 7k a month, you won't save 100k a year. [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/new-york-city-software-en...

You are exaggerating NYC income taxes. At $200k, your effective income tax rate if you file single, including FICA, is 33%, not 40% [0].

Heck, your marginal tax rate isn't even 40%, and all those numbers are without taking a 401k tax deduction.

People get this crazy idea that $200k isn't rich in NYC or SF. It is very, very rich, even for the area. COL adjustment for rent and groceries shaves off $15-30k, but it doesn't keep scaling up from there.

[0] https://smartasset.com/taxes/new-york-tax-calculator

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#509
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that they must have too many qualified engineers applying, and they need an arbitrary way to filter people out. I almost managed to write that with a straight face.

yahoo did this to me. Verifying employment is one thing (I guess...), but their background check thing wanted exact salaries too, and permission to ask HR at all my previous employers. Is this common? I've worked for small companies so haven't run into anything like this elsewhere. Except for one asshole that wanted to do a reference check two weeks after I started work (!!!) (he offered me a job at the end of the in…

I worked for Y and did the bg check and did not give salaries, I never do. Wasn't a problem.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#510

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I probably shouldn't post because reading this kind of stuff always annoys me. Let's back up from the "OMG I'm getting scammed" position and see what a "fair" share for a programmer is.

Let's say there are 10 programmers on the team and the company makes $10m in sales that year. How much money should each programmer receive? You might naively think $1m a piece is fair. But there are other people in the company and other costs involved. It is quite common to run companies with a 5% profit. R&D expenditures are usually around 10% of total expenditures. So $10m sales is $500k profit and $9.5 million expenses. $950k of that is spent on R&D, or about $95k per developer. The rest goes to paying other employees, real estate, cost of sales, etc, etc. If you find a way to reduce these other costs in your company, you will almost certainly be able to negotiate a wonderful bonus, but otherwise you really can't complain. It's just hubris to think that your contribution should account for more than everybody else's. Go ahead and fire those sales people. What could possibly go wrong.

But you may not be thinking about sales. Because, hey, we're in "dotcom version 2" these days. Who cares about sales? It's company valuation that really defines "the added value they CREATE", right? Well, please forgive the sarcasm from an old programmer. Moving money from your investor's pockets to your own is an age old and proven business plan. If you feel you deserve a slice of the action, then by all means go for it. My moral outrage does not quite extend to your plight, unfortunately.

You might be thinking, "I'm not talking about those scammy startups that are just pumping their valuation to score a big exit. I'm talking about the true unicorns that are wildly successful. Where's our cut?" Well, if you look at a wide cross section of startups and look at return on investment over a 10-20 year period, it is true that there is some growth. Let me be really clear, though -- you don't deserve that money.

Let's face it. Are you going to take responsibility for the failed projects? Are you going to refund the investors when it turns out that your awesome architecture suddenly implodes and causes the company to miss its window of opportunity? Are you going to pay for those days when you were arguing with your coworker about whether to indent 2 space or 4 spaces instead of getting the damn product out the door? Am I going to pay my employer for wasting their time writing this ridiculous reply instead of fixing their sales system? OF COURSE NOT!

The attitude that "All the success is due to me and all the failure is due to someone else" really bothers me. If you really think you're worth millions, then go ahead and stick that giant price tag on your head. I wouldn't hold my breath about landing that "no downsides, all upsides and BTW make me rich" job, though.

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