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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#431

Post by jghn »

jazzyk wrote: post #266
morgante wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glassdoor skews heavily downwards. Even for companies I've worked at, where I knew what everyone made, its data was roughly 25-40% below reality. Also, why look at median salary? We're arguing over whether it's "possible" to become affluent as a mere employee—even if only the top 20% of engineers are capable of it, it's certainly possible.

Maybe I am a total loser, but I am not aware of any companies which "routinely" pay $300K for technical positions, not even at the Director level, in the Boston area.

I find in these conversations that some people are talking about salary and others are talking about salary + bonus + stock options. In particular, the stock option portion to me (but YMMV) seems disingenuous.

As an example, I'm in the Boston area and ~2 rungs away from a "director" type title, working at a company known to not pay top dollar and without things like stock. It wouldn't take much stock for me to enter into the range that's being discussed here, albeit likely the lower side of it. OTOH none of the people I talk about this stuff with are remotely near the top end of that range when you take stock options out of the picture.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#432

Post by tn13 »

fdsaaf wrote: post #3

LOL. Massachusetts lawmakers passed this stupid, empty gesture but didn't ban noncompetes. Enjoy your technology non-industry, Massachusetts.

Not sure why these comment is being down-voted. It is not even rude. The law does seem stupid and an empty gesture. (Like NY state banning Sex offenders from playing Pokemon Go) but such laws benefit no one, add an extra layer of complexity in hiring process. Are not there any other proxies for determining a person salary ? For example you can always ask a person his/her house rent or ask for tax returns.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#433

Post by dnh44 »

kwisatzh wrote: post #182
markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

+10000 I've always maintained that Wall Street is way fairer to its employees than the Valley. Most investment banks and hedge funds offer great bonuses to their traders/analysts as they should -- they are the ones bringing in money. Relative to the value engineers create for firms like Apple/FB/Google, its easy to see they see peanuts of that value.

Sports is another industry where the employees are paid quite fairly relative to the owners. This is often missed when people complain about someone getting paid millions to throw a ball. The alternative is that the owners of the teams make even more.

The other thing to note is that most athletes in America's sports industry are unionised.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#434

Post by jghn »

bargl wrote: post #44

I hate this question. I frequently dodge or outright deny answering it. I won't lie about it, I just say, no you don't get that information. To dodge this question I say the following: "I'm looking for compensation in the range of xxxx to XXXX. This obviously depends on the benefits packages, for an awesome benefits package you may be closer to xxxx, if your benefits are bad then you'll need to be closer to XXXX." If…

This can be easier to say than to do, depending on the person.

I am now at a stage in my career/life where if anyone tried to force me to give me a number, I'd say no. If they pushed the issue, yes I'd walk away.

That wasn't always the case, there were times where I needed to be the one to fall into line. In those cases I universally got screwed as the company would always quite obviously base my offer on my current salary, even when they claimed otherwise.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#435

Post by tn13 »

dudul wrote: post #2

Excellent measure. I remember interviewing at a very large corpo (think one of the main phone carriers), their application process online required applicants to reveal their salaries for the past 10 years. And before making an offer, they were asking for a W2 to make sure you were currently making what you claimed. Needless to say, I laughed at their face and walked. I assume this law won't apply to questions like "h…

Excellent measure only if the world worked by laws passed. Clearly the job market in Mass is very competitive and current salary is something that is helping employers make a better decision. Outlawing it only means top employers will have to rely on proxies where as low-end employers will violate the law nevertheless.

On the ground it only makes things worse for both employees and employers.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#436

Post by jghn »

thomasahle wrote: post #408
lukejduncan wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've followed this advice in the past with mixed results. Some companies do a great job of either respecting this or not asking in the first place. When I interviewed at Uber (a little more than a year back), the recruiter was super persistent. I told them "I understand why you're interested, but it's my personal preference at the advice of personal mentors, not to disclose that information. If we both like each othe…

> we have a policy of always making the lowest possible offer to candidates who won't share their compensation information What does "lowest possible offer" even mean? Lowest wage that you can live off? Lowest wage that anybody else in the company makes? Lowest wage that you'll accept?

It probably means that they have salary bands and you're starting at the bottom

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#437

Post by nl »

hnal943 wrote: post #310
hx87 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High level executives at large corporations are a small enough group with enough common interests that they might as well constitute a union, and they have an exemplary record of preserving value for themselves.

It's silly to point to a cohort of high-skilled non-union workers that are highly paid and claim that is an argument for the unionization of high-skilled workers.

True, but there are plenty of high-skilled, high-paid workers who are unionized, although they typically would dispute the "union" tag.

The American Medical Association is a great example.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#438

Post by teach »

bargl wrote: post #398
lukejduncan wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've followed this advice in the past with mixed results. Some companies do a great job of either respecting this or not asking in the first place. When I interviewed at Uber (a little more than a year back), the recruiter was super persistent. I told them "I understand why you're interested, but it's my personal preference at the advice of personal mentors, not to disclose that information. If we both like each othe…

I have experienced this as well. Quick story. Before I took this advice, I made the mistake of telling a recruiter my salary, and then the recruiter said, yeah I'm not going to give you a 20K raise. The guys on that team were great and the compensation was actually viable, but it was not a good fit overall. I think any negotiation where you want to walk away with the best deal you have to be willing to let a job go.…

If you don't mind my asking, if you "loved" two of the places you have worked why have you been through four employers in 4-1/2 years?

I love my current employer, which is why I have stayed there 19 years.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#439

Post by matthewowen »

slg wrote: post #399
matthewowen wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your answer also shows a common misunderstanding about economics, because it takes too narrow a focus. If there exist jobs that produce $1MM in value but that have a going rate of 200k, then there should be more of those jobs: either the company doing the work should expand, or it should have competitors. This will lead to increased competition to hire, which means higher wages. The increased number of jobs might gen…

You appear to be ignoring everything else that goes into making a company besides labor. There isn't perfect competition in the real world. Companies don't all have the same resources, customer base, or opportunities. For example, a person doing the exact same job at Facebook is going to provide more value than a person doing the exact same job at Twitter which is going to provide more value than a person doing the e…

I feel like my earlier comment has been misconstrued as "if your work generates $1MM in profit than it should be rewarded with $0.999MM in salary". That's not what I'm attempting to say at all. Assessing value is definitely more complex than that.

Additionally, yeah, it's true, competitors might not be able to realize the same value in the same space. Competitive advantages exist. Spreads between value and salaries will exist, and some companies might have bigger spreads than others because they're more able to realize value. I agree with all of this.

All I am attempting to do is refute the claim that there's no relationship between value of work and renumeration for that work ("[t]he value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary"). I don't dispute that we can create toy examples where that doesn't happen, but they aren't effective refutations of the general point.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#440

Post by jghn »

throwAway295 wrote: post #392
gtallen1187 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assuming your current salary is X. "So I currently make (X * 1.20), but in order to make the jump I need at least (X * 1.40)." Regardless of whether or not the employer actually does due diligence, why put yourself at risk by lying? The second half of that statement is the only part that matters. If you simply say "I need (X * 1.40) to make the jump", you'll accomplish your goal without putting yourself at risk by…

What is the risk? Honest question. Is there a legal risk in this?

They can sometimes find out that you've lied. I've known people who had this happen, and the offers were rescinded. In all of those cases the person had already quit their job, were in the transition period and were told they were no longer going to work at the new place.
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