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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#361

Post by WalterBright »

matthewowen wrote: post #237
slg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Your answer also shows a common misunderstanding about economics, because it takes too narrow a focus. If there exist jobs that produce $1MM in value but that have a going rate of 200k, then there should be more of those jobs: either the company doing the work should expand, or it should have competitors. This will lead to increased competition to hire, which means higher wages. The increased number of jobs might gen…

To put it in simpler terms, if an employee creates $100 in value but only costs $10, competitors will line up to outbid that $10 to poach that employee.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#362

Post by walshemj »

ajeet_dhaliwal wrote: post #23

This is desperately needed in the UK, the recruiters (external) here won't even let you proceed if you don't reveal it.

Not always I fired the last recruiter who tried that and that organisation is still in my little black book as never use"

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#363

Post by vacri »

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

So the CxOs get no credit for vision?

Basically you're saying that a developer's worth is tied to the worth of the company; that the same developer who works at a multimillion dollar company is worth millions, but if they then move to a startup that is struggling and then fails, they are only worth tens of thousands (or even zero).

If developers were paid relative to what the company was earning, there wouldn't even be a 'startup scene'.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#364

Post by Spooky23 »

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

Economic theory mumbo jumbo is a red herring. It's all about risk. You "pay" a premium for an FTE position where you get paid every two weeks, get someone to deal with your benefits and pay your taxes.

If you create $1M of value, that's fine, but the check for that value may not arrive for a year -- or ever. But you still get paid. Engineers always talk about the money they save or value they create, but most of the savings are fixing mistakes and the value usually cannot be attributed to specific people.

If you want to get paid what you're "worth", you need to be at risk. Either work for yourself or work a gig where you get paid directly for outcomes like a salesman.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#365

Post by dfabulich »

matthewowen wrote: post #237
slg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Your answer also shows a common misunderstanding about economics, because it takes too narrow a focus. If there exist jobs that produce $1MM in value but that have a going rate of 200k, then there should be more of those jobs: either the company doing the work should expand, or it should have competitors. This will lead to increased competition to hire, which means higher wages. The increased number of jobs might gen…

> If there exist jobs that produce $1MM in value but that have a going rate of 200k, then there should be more of those jobs: either the company doing the work should expand, or it should have competitors.

> in a well functioning market

All these big California technology firms argue to shareholders that their network effects create a "moat" (they prefer you not to call it a "natural monopoly"), and that this is exactly why their revenues are disproportionate to their spending/hiring.

I think your argument should be played backwards: the large-cap CA technology industry is not a "well functioning market" because everyone's just seeking natural monopolies--and sometimes capturing them.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#366

Post by adrusi »

matthewowen wrote: post #237
slg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Your answer also shows a common misunderstanding about economics, because it takes too narrow a focus. If there exist jobs that produce $1MM in value but that have a going rate of 200k, then there should be more of those jobs: either the company doing the work should expand, or it should have competitors. This will lead to increased competition to hire, which means higher wages. The increased number of jobs might gen…

If there exist jobs that produce $1MM in value but that have a going rate of 200k, then there should be more of those jobs

This is true generally, but I think it doesn't apply in context. Tech has saturated the existing market, there is no demand to be satisfied for more tech. Of course, the industry will continue to grow, but only because the very nature of tech is to innovate. Growth in tech doesn't come from creating new supply to fill an ever-growing demand, it comes from innovating and creating new demand. That means that the growth of tech is bound to the rate of scientific progress, of investor's wallets and of cultural change. You can't keep hiring more and more 200k developers to make more millions, because there's no one left to pay more millions.

The parent, slg, was right in their analysis except for one point: employers have to compete on salary between each other, but they also have to compete against the engineer's opportunity to start their own company, which would let them earn directly in proportion to the value they produce. Engineers' salaries are therefore related to the level of risk and difficulty of entrepeneurship. The easier it becomes to start a startup (controlling for the expected returns of starting a startup), the more employers will pay their engineers.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#367

Post by eropple »

Twirrim wrote: post #218
Jakawao wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...but Massachusetts just killed their efforts to reform non-competes. http://www.wbur.org/morningedition/2016/08/02/non-compete-ag...

Argh. Oh well. Massachusetts continues to be a state I have on my blacklist.

Or you can just get your non-competes redlined. I did it at literally every job I worked at after my first out of college (and that non-compete was "travel companies", BFD).

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#368

Post by skolos »

up_and_up wrote: post #197
skolos wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Works well until an employer does due diligence (ask for proof of your number). In my experience many (not all) do due diligence.

I would never work for a company that went to that level. In 10 years, I havent seen a company pull that. If you suspect that might be part of their hiring process. Just say "I need to make X" and evade all talk of current salary.

As I mentioned in previous comment - companies would do this in case they really want a candidate but feel that previous compensation is somewhat above the market. They OK to pay market rate (if you can prove that) but are weary that a candidate employs the strategy suggested by the parent comment. I this case showing proof of previous compensation usually helps with negotiations.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#369

Post by bcheung »

hx87 wrote: post #339
bcheung wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with the not discriminating part, it's the asking part I'm concerned with. It seems like censorship and going against Freedom of Speech to me. A better law would be that employers may not discriminate or refuse to hire someone if they refuse to tell them their previous salary. Specificity is key, just saying you can't ask feels too overreaching. The intent is to prevent discrimination, not speech.

We can't effectively legislate thought yet, although that hasn't stopped legislatures from trying and lawyers from making loads of money arguing over intent. It's incredibly difficult, inefficient and expensive to determine whether an asked question led to a discriminatory decision, so asking is prohibited instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#370

Post by vacri »

danjoc wrote: post #162
gjkood wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a common saying "Nobody ever gets rich working for someone else". I am not sure how much that is backed up by any statistics but the Bay Area and employees of unicorns or Google/Apple/Amazon/Microsoft/... may be outliers to this adage. Anyway the point I am trying to make is that as an engineer you either have the choice of working for an employer and living an albeit comfortable life (without any risk) or go…

>as an engineer you either have the choice I don't feel like I do. I cannot afford to battle patent trolls when something I produce somehow infringes on their "intellectual properties." There has been some progress, given the Alice vs CLS Bank decision, but there's still lots of patents flying around out there like this one ( https://www.google.com/patents/EP2973038A1 ) where Google attempts to patent "Classifying re…

> I plod along at my position which is automating thousands out of their jobs while I make a minuscule fraction of what those people were once paid.

If you were paid the salary of all those you automated out of a job, there'd be zero incentive for anyone to buy your product.

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