Earlier quoted context omitted.
They can just ask for a paystub.
Not anymore!
At least, not in Massachusetts.
Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
331–340 of 785 posts
Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
High level executives at large corporations are a small enough group with enough common interests that they might as well constitute a union, and they have an exemplary record of preserving value for themselves.
It's silly to point to a cohort of high-skilled non-union workers that are highly paid and claim that is an argument for the unionization of high-skilled workers.
I'm not arguing for unionization here, although it does have its advantages; I'm arguing that:
1) Unionization is easier and more effective when defection is difficult (or impossible, as in some German unions) and heavily punished. As soon as defection pays off, it loses its value.
2) The set of high level executives at large corporations is small and cliquish enough that it is a de facto union, since they can convince boards to bid up each other's prices and punish/shun those who offer their services at lower prices.
Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
> invest 10% or 50% of your productive lifespan ... and leaves you jobless If you are not an equity holder, that sentence makes no sense. In a standard employment arrangement, you are selling your time for your salary. The job is not your property; it was created by your employer. Also, you got paid for that 10-50% of your productive lifespan. What else are you expecting?
As an employee, your time and skills are your personal capital (your means of production). The way you invest that capital has risk like any other investment. Again, this is partially mitigated by salary. But as an employee, you probably don't expect to earn your negotiated starting salary for the next 40 years. You enter the relationship expecting some form of advancement, bonus, or other rewards in relation to your…
Returns to your productive capital being less than expected is quite different than being jobless. Though that is the worst-case outcome.
Asking about those advancement opportunities up front is very important during the interview stage. Getting it in your contract is even more important.
I agree that the employee takes risks when choosing an employer. I was confused about the scope of upside expectations.
Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hate to say this, but if you think getting laid off is a huge financial risk then you probably have not done much business. There are exceptions of course, but most founders I know carry huge financial risks (like years and years of salary on the down side, and tens of times that on the upside...). If you haven't tried you probably can't imagine how stressful it can be at times...
Most founders (at least in the software area) provide a lot of sweat equity, but almost never any cash. Also, early startup employees are persuaded to accept below-market salaries and work a lot of overtime, exactly like the founders, without the upside ( rarely more than 1% of the company).
I was given an offer like this recently.
The downside was a lower pay now and substantially larger risk of losing my job compared to other places. And developer work here isn't exactly hard to find.
The potential upside was... maybe two years down the line they'd start paying me what other people were willing to pay me now. The guy I negotiated with even tried to make it sound like we were all there on the same terms cos our monthly pay was the same, leaving out that I'd be the only without a share, the other four sharing the company equally... have to say I walked away from that one.
Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Silicon Valley it seems popular to just start your own company and capture the value that way, but other fields have solved this issue by unionizing.
Unions do not have a good history of preserving value, at least not in the USA.
The AMA and the BMA in the UK would beg to differ
Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll say this: if you aren't writing code in a way that someone else can pick up the project when you leave, then you are being an irresponsible coder.
Irresponsible coding follows naturally from irresponsible management.
Take responsibility for your own code. Be a man, or be a woman. Stop blaming other people. Your life becomes better when you take control.
Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
This reality provides one of the best arguments for a switch from a capitalist economy, in which it is shareholders who have little to do with the creation of value in the economy who ultimately benefit the most from it, to a free market socialist economy (one based on democratically owned worker cooperatives). In an economy based on worker cooperatives, the distinction between "employee" and "owner" is eliminated. I…
Consider that practically every company begins as a democratic worker-owned cooperative, and those worker-owners generally can't wait to diversify themselves out of that position. Risk exposure is a lot higher when you're a worker-owner, and most people are horribly risk-adverse. Ignoring the risk factor in the equation leads to some rather wrong conclusions.
Err no not in my experience - I used to be member of a well lnow tech coop in the UK. They way you structure it is your a member of the coop that owns the company who employes you .
Of course Mondragon in spain is different you have to Ante up
Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consider that practically every company begins as a democratic worker-owned cooperative, and those worker-owners generally can't wait to diversify themselves out of that position. Risk exposure is a lot higher when you're a worker-owner, and most people are horribly risk-adverse. Ignoring the risk factor in the equation leads to some rather wrong conclusions.
> most people are horribly risk-adverse Free market socialism (i.e. a large UBI + single payer healthcare + low regulation) would largely mitigate that risk aversion, especially when combined with low levels of personal debt, since if you fail you can always count on decent healthcare and the UBI check.
One advantage of the NHS serious medical conditions wont bankrupt you.
Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Having a law that says you can't ask someone something seems to violate Freedom of Speech and it sets a dangerous precedent." Like your age, religion, sexual orientation, or if you're planning on getting pregnant?
I'm fine with the not discriminating part, it's the asking part I'm concerned with. It seems like censorship and going against Freedom of Speech to me. A better law would be that employers may not discriminate or refuse to hire someone if they refuse to tell them their previous salary. Specificity is key, just saying you can't ask feels too overreaching. The intent is to prevent discrimination, not speech.
We can't effectively legislate thought yet, although that hasn't stopped legislatures from trying and lawyers from making loads of money arguing over intent. It's incredibly difficult, inefficient and expensive to determine whether an asked question led to a discriminatory decision, so asking is prohibited instead.
Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
First person to talk numbers generally has the weak hand in the negotiation.
Most negotiation experts disagree with this advice. The first person who gives a number anchors the conversation to that number. When you name a number you certainly do set a max on negotiation, but you also get to set the starting number. And many negotiation experts think the latter is more valuable than the former. So they can start off trying to negotiate you down from your max, or up you can spend your time tryi…
That sounds similar to the idea the Overton window[0]. I've thought for a while that I hope I get to say what I want before they say what they're offering. The hope is that if I say a high number then we will be negotiating based on that high number rather than some unknown, possibly lower one.