Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft forks Unreal Engine 4 and ports it to Universal Windows Platform

forums.unrealengine.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 118 posts

Re: Microsoft forks Unreal Engine 4 and ports it to Universal Windows Platform

#71

Post by iamcreasy »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #61
iamcreasy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That UWP apps are sandboxed (like Android and iOS apps) and therefore less able to act maliciously. Many people don't want Console/phone like restriction on PC. Sweeney feared that MS will try to force everybody to use UWP, and later MS will change UWP policies. But then it will be late for everybody move away from UWP. How many people you know downloads the apk on their android phone to get the app running? Do you…

There is nothing inherently "open" about the current system. Windows is a closed source platform and Microsoft can write it to block whatever they want to. If they wanted to block Win32 apps, they could. (SmartScreen, by default, DOES, if they're not appropriately signed or commonly downloaded.) The idea that encouraging user level apps to use UWP because it is safer does not inherently mean some draconian lockdown i…

I didn't mean 'open' or 'close'. I meant 'less restrictive' or 'more restrictive'. Win32 is less restrictive, and UWP is more restrictive.

> The idea that encouraging user level apps to use UWP because it is safer does not inherently mean some draconian lockdown is coming.

All market places (google play, steam, apple app store) has restrictions. I haven't made app for any one of them, but I am certain there are policies people disagree with, and policies that has lead an app to be removed from the store or some app not getting past the the screening process.

On Win32 you don't have that. You can build something, post it anywhere, anybody can download and run it without any hiccup. This fluidity has made PC where it is today.

Also there are trust issues. Sweeney said, "The risk here is that, if Microsoft convinces everybody to use UWP, then they phase out Win32 apps. If they can succeed in doing that then it’s a small leap to forcing all apps and games to be distributed through the Windows Store."

> If Microsoft is going to lock the platform down, they're going to lock the platform down. There's nothing you can do about it.

Yes there is. In fact that's why this thread exists. MS has added UWP feature because Epic games won't do it. Steam has also released SteamOS.

It's more users that MS wants. Security comes later. And as long as the developers are taking a stand against restrictive UWP, MS will leave UWP behind. And hopefully next time they will take a different route.

Least restrictive nature is the hallmark of PC. I can't stress it enough.

Re: Microsoft forks Unreal Engine 4 and ports it to Universal Windows Platform

#72

Post by detaro »

Sylos wrote: post #43
ungzd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be EEE if they, for example, ported DirectX to Linux. But here they're just ported other product to run on their "a-la Android for desktop" system. Possibly evil but not exactly EEE.

They can definitely also EEE with this. Take a game engine, create a fork for your platform, wait until your platform and fork has a significant market share, and then start introducing features to your fork, which are not directly available on the main-branch. I can't seem to find anything on how UE4 is licensed, but even if Microsoft is forced to release all of their source code, if their fork is different enough f…

And everybody using the fork still has to pay Epic according to the UE4 license, it doesn't matter for Epic which version they use: they get their 5% profit share either way.

If Microsoft were to discourage Win32 apps Epic would have to adapt UE4, but the MS fork can't really make that harder.

Re: Microsoft forks Unreal Engine 4 and ports it to Universal Windows Platform

#73

Post by shmerl »

Ezhik wrote: post #70
ungzd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be EEE if they, for example, ported DirectX to Linux. But here they're just ported other product to run on their "a-la Android for desktop" system. Possibly evil but not exactly EEE.

It's evil to want people to develop for your platform?

It's evil to hinder development for other platforms (extend + extinguish part).

Re: Microsoft forks Unreal Engine 4 and ports it to Universal Windows Platform

#74

Post by nix0n »

iamcreasy wrote: post #44
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Newell's comments are from 2012. Sweeney's comments have been pretty much directly invalidated by Microsoft's actions. Note that this year Microsoft made a point to address Sweeney's comments by demonstrating Steamworks in a UWP app, and the Windows 10 update releasing today makes it easier to install UWP apps without the Windows Store. They've repetitively reiterated that UWP apps can be sold through third party sto…

> That UWP apps are sandboxed (like Android and iOS apps) and therefore less able to act maliciously. Many people don't want Console/phone like restriction on PC. Sweeney feared that MS will try to force everybody to use UWP, and later MS will change UWP policies. But then it will be late for everybody move away from UWP. How many people you know downloads the apk on their android phone to get the app running? Do you…

> How many people you know downloads the apk on their android phone to get the app running?

Most of the PC gamers I know (maybe all) did this on the day Pokemon GO was available in NZ/Aus but not NA. Probably few of them had done it before.

I understand what you're saying, but PC gamers are a different crowd than the average Windows user. We'll do what we have to in order to get control of our own PCs back.

I guess on the one hand the lock down is a rational fear, because it's something MS would attempt. But I'm not actually scared that it would be achievable.

Re: Microsoft forks Unreal Engine 4 and ports it to Universal Windows Platform

#76

Post by ansible »

duaneb wrote: post #68
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but it is also the case that their getting-away-with-it power is at an all time low. Actually, most, if not all of the provisions, of the DOJ settlement have expired. This is why they can ship an AV with their OS and tell OEM's to cut it out with the crapware and offer special installers to remove this stuff. I think they're just too weak to be the MS of the 90s. They just have to play ball to be competitive like ev…

> Its 90% conspiracy theories and axe grinding from things a decade out. There are 2/64 comments expressing this view. You're being hyperbolic. The main theme recently has been "Wow, I never thought I would like MS again, but they're impressing me!" If anything, MS is the new darling brand of the big five here.

If anything, MS is the new darling brand of the big five here.

Eh, they're not as evil as they used to be. But they're not doing as much as I would like to protect user privacy either. So I'm not super happy with them.

Though I really the the Hololens, I hope that goes into mass production soon with a good field of view. That product might get me to buy into more of their ecosystem.

Re: Microsoft forks Unreal Engine 4 and ports it to Universal Windows Platform

#77

Post by ocdtrekkie »

iamcreasy wrote: post #71
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing inherently "open" about the current system. Windows is a closed source platform and Microsoft can write it to block whatever they want to. If they wanted to block Win32 apps, they could. (SmartScreen, by default, DOES, if they're not appropriately signed or commonly downloaded.) The idea that encouraging user level apps to use UWP because it is safer does not inherently mean some draconian lockdown i…

I didn't mean 'open' or 'close'. I meant 'less restrictive' or 'more restrictive'. Win32 is less restrictive, and UWP is more restrictive. > The idea that encouraging user level apps to use UWP because it is safer does not inherently mean some draconian lockdown is coming. All market places (google play, steam, apple app store) has restrictions. I haven't made app for any one of them, but I am certain there are polic…

So what you're saying is, Windows should not strive to meet any sort of basic security capability? Because that's all UWP is: A more secure design.

Win32 is only "less restrictive" than UWP in one particular way: It allows any application to mess with almost anything in your system without warning or user permission.

Anyone can download and run UWP without any hiccup. In actuality, Win32 does have hiccups: UAC elevation, SmartScreen filtering, etc.

Steam can sell UWP apps if they want. Epic Games can merge Microsoft's fork if they want. (Bear in mind, pull requests start as forks.)

Microsoft has the users, it needs the security so it doesn't lose those users. Tim Sweeney is paranoid in the wrong ways, he's suggesting that you have to leave a poorly secured operating system in order to protect user freedom. That's false.

Re: Microsoft forks Unreal Engine 4 and ports it to Universal Windows Platform

#79

Post by ocdtrekkie »

2bitencryption wrote: post #64
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but it is also the case that their getting-away-with-it power is at an all time low. Actually, most, if not all of the provisions, of the DOJ settlement have expired. This is why they can ship an AV with their OS and tell OEM's to cut it out with the crapware and offer special installers to remove this stuff. I think they're just too weak to be the MS of the 90s. They just have to play ball to be competitive like ev…

It's not just MS that has changed. Every aspect of every industry that MS competes in has changed. To argue that the same business practices from the 90s apply today, especially in the technology sector where the entire plane shifts radically every other year... that's just crazy. I don't see why so many people buy into it still.

I suspect a lot of is that people formed that opinion of Microsoft in their formative years. This generation we commonly see on HN has this childhood definition of Microsoft as evil internalized at a pretty deep level. People look for reasons to justify their beliefs more than they look for reasons to challenge them.

There are companies I got a bad impression of many years ago too that I am hesitant to reevaluate. I think it's pretty normal/natural, even though it's kinda unhealthy from an intellectual standpoint.

Re: Microsoft forks Unreal Engine 4 and ports it to Universal Windows Platform

#80

Post by ocdtrekkie »

wlesieutre wrote: post #65
douche wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still waiting on seeing some real UWP apps that aren't first-party Microsoft efforts or shovelware. The platform is not exactly new, and I'm just not seeing anybody bothering to adopt it.

Netflix is on board, as is Hulu. But the platform makes more sense than average for them, since they want to be on Xbox. http://www.windowscentral.com/netflix-looks-be-readying-its-... I really liked the idea MS had with phones that could scale up to full screen devices if you docked them, but I'm more skeptical of this. Aside from media providers, who else is going to put in the effort to make their UI controller-fr…

I think the goal of scale-up would be to make it so easy people just put it in. Swiping up and down on the phone could be pushing up and down on the joystick on the Xbox, or using the scroll wheel on the PC.

In theory. Obviously if not adjusted some, user experience suffers. But the idea is to make it so easy to adapt to different form factors, it just seems normal to. (People expect these days that their Android phone or iPhone app will work well on an Android tablet or iPad, for instance.)

Post reply on HN