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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#181

Post by sbov »

kls wrote: post #140
siculars wrote: post #12

This. Negotiating a compensation package, in general, is asymmetric information warfare. Having to reveal your salary history you may as well not even negotiate. I know so many women who are constantly bit by this and negotiating in general. Here's an idea: compensation agents who negotiate the compensation package on your behalf. Athletes and actors have them, why not everyone else?

I actually went on an interview once in which they asked for my last pay stub as proof of income. I declined and they said they would have to pass on me. A good portion of my previous income was equity. Granted the equity did not pan out but I was making double that in straight income in the job before it. Anyways I doubled down on their attempt at making the information asymmetrical and told them that they have my a…

"You can pay me the salary I made at my last job if you give me 5% ownership in every project I work on, like at my last job."

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#182

Post by kwisatzh »

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

+10000 I've always maintained that Wall Street is way fairer to its employees than the Valley. Most investment banks and hedge funds offer great bonuses to their traders/analysts as they should -- they are the ones bringing in money. Relative to the value engineers create for firms like Apple/FB/Google, its easy to see they see peanuts of that value.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#183

Post by fecak »

oillio wrote: post #152
fecak wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote a post a few years ago about agents ( https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/09/17/disrupt/ ) and actually had some people from HN approach me to see if I'd started that service. At the time I hadn't but I'm reconsidering this right now. I wrote the article in response to the incentives for recruiters being typically seen as driven by the client (hiring firm). The main issue is that recruiters are paid by hiring fi…

Personally, I would be interested in this service when I am job hunting. Having a trusted third party between myself and the prospective employer would help shift the power dynamic significantly. Also having a trained negotiator would take a lot of stress off of me. Any thoughts on a rough price range you would look for to provide this sort of service?

A pure hourly rate would seem easy to figure, but I dislike that there is no financial incentive for the negotiator to actually get results. The ideal situation would be for the negotiator to also benefit financially from the result, as he/she would likely be more inclined to push a bit harder.

Perhaps a combination of an hourly rate and either (a) % of salary - which would be very small I assume or (b) % of difference between initial offer and final offer - which would be larger than the percentage in a.

I'd have to think about it, but in the short-term I'd charge my standard hourly coach/consult rate to job seekers which is currently $60/hr.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#184

Post by theorique »

dudul wrote: post #14
inlined wrote: post #10

Candidates "may" offer this information upfront? I feel like I'm watching Office Space "Am I supposed to tell you my salary before even hearing your initial offer?" "Some employees choose to offer salary information, and we encourage that"

"We want you to join us for the mission, not for the money. Be a team player and share your salary with us!"

"We're into changing the world - we don't care about petty things like money" (CEO who owns 25% of the company)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#185

Post by mandlar »

skolos wrote: post #167
up_and_up wrote: post #62

Feel free to tell them what you make just add 15-40% to that number. This has worked well for me. Employers seem happy as well. Example: Assuming your current salary is X. "So I currently make (X * 1.20), but in order to make the jump I need at least (X * 1.40)." That way they get to feel out immediately whether they can afford you, you get the salary that would motivate you, and no one is wasting time in the hiring…

Works well until an employer does due diligence (ask for proof of your number). In my experience many (not all) do due diligence.

How are they going to verify your current salary? Do companies really go out of their way to do that?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#186

Post by hnal943 »

Kliment wrote: post #157
tacostakohashi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these things are true. However, there is another input into supply side, and that's alternatives to employment like starting a company. Any employees that really create much more value than their salary can and will just leave and start their own company, where they get to set their own salary. By doing so, they'll also be leaving the pool of employees, and potentially hiring others too (reducing supply, incre…

The latter is not necessarily true - you might be creating tremendous value, but have barriers to market entry that are enormous such that you can only really create that value from within one of the existing players on the market. See aerospace, telecommunications, medicine, government contracting for examples of such industries. If I'm making a huge amount of added value for a large telecom, it's unlikely I can sta…

You're a component in a value creating engine which includes the ability to hurdle those barriers to entry, which means you don't get credit (on your own) for the total value that you are able to produce within that system.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#187

Post by cheald »

Kliment wrote: post #157
tacostakohashi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these things are true. However, there is another input into supply side, and that's alternatives to employment like starting a company. Any employees that really create much more value than their salary can and will just leave and start their own company, where they get to set their own salary. By doing so, they'll also be leaving the pool of employees, and potentially hiring others too (reducing supply, incre…

The latter is not necessarily true - you might be creating tremendous value, but have barriers to market entry that are enormous such that you can only really create that value from within one of the existing players on the market. See aerospace, telecommunications, medicine, government contracting for examples of such industries. If I'm making a huge amount of added value for a large telecom, it's unlikely I can sta…

You make the strong case that your value-creation in such a scenario is an amplification of value created by other people, and is not actually value created by you in a vacuum. What sense would it make for you to claim priority ownership of that value if you can't create it on your own?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#188

Post by jazzyk »

morgante wrote: post #149
dvt wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, no. This adage is very very true. Sure, you can get a comfortable six figure salary, but that is by no stretch of the imagination "affluent". I'm defining rich as making 7 figures a year. I think that's a pretty fair assessment. You'll never get that working for someone else (especially as an engineer), barring extenuating circumstances. High equity employee #1 or co-founder is the way to go. High risk, high rewa…

A 7 figure annual income is setting the affluent definition very high. You can work at Google for a decade and end up a multi-millionaire, with enough money to retire to most places in the US. From your other comment, it seems like you haven't done the analysis on this. Top companies are routinely paying $200k-300k these days. That's enough to save a million dollars over a decade even if you have a family.

>Top companies are routinely paying $200k-300k these days

Yup, all four of them - Apple, Facebook, Google, Netflix.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#189

Post by balls187 »

trentmb wrote: post #126
usaphp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you tell me the reason behind you thinking that "100k for a JavaScript engeneer is more than the "fair share"? And why you highlight the word "engeneer"?

Because we're not actually engineers. https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe Although there does appear to be a PE exam for software: http://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf

Specific to the US

No, we're not "professional engineers," which means we cannot testify in court as an expert in our field, and have limitations for what we can consult on based on the licensing requirements of your state.

However, the title of "engineer" can be conferred upon an individual by an employer, during the term of their employment.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#190

Post by paulddraper »

nkurz wrote: post #91
paulddraper wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is precisely letting the markets figuring it out. Those who offer at most 10% increase when a person's value is 50% higher will find themselves missing the good employees and ultimately, failing. --- An example: How much do I offer for this house? I have have no friggin' clue. But I can look at previous sale prices to get an rough idea. Naturally, I if trust my decision to that 100%, I'll risk making a poor deci…

> How much do I offer for this house? I like the example, but wouldn't it be more parallel to ask "How much have you offered for other houses?" or "How much did your previous house sell for?". The seller would love to know that you are capable of offering more, but you are (properly?) reluctant to give this information. > But the previous sales are a piece of information about the market that I ought not ignore. I do…

Your proposed parallel is backwards. The house is for sale to the buyer; the employee's time and skills are for sale to the employer.

So those question would be more like "How much do you pay other employees?" or "How much have you offered other candidates?"

You can ask those questions. Some employers are upfront, even posting salary ranges in the job ad itself. Other employers will decline to share that information.

Either side can reveal as much or as little information about their employment history as they choose. Curtailing freedoms is a heavy-handed act, despite the theoretical advantage to candidates.

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