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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#111

Post by dvt »

blahi wrote: post #57
gjkood wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a common saying "Nobody ever gets rich working for someone else". I am not sure how much that is backed up by any statistics but the Bay Area and employees of unicorns or Google/Apple/Amazon/Microsoft/... may be outliers to this adage. Anyway the point I am trying to make is that as an engineer you either have the choice of working for an employer and living an albeit comfortable life (without any risk) or go…

This adage is used mostly by snake oil salesmen slinging get-rich-quick schemes. Working for somebody else is probably the best way to get rich. Putting a qualification here, rich is not filthy rich, but affluent to comfortably rich.

Uh, no. This adage is very very true. Sure, you can get a comfortable six figure salary, but that is by no stretch of the imagination "affluent".

I'm defining rich as making 7 figures a year. I think that's a pretty fair assessment. You'll never get that working for someone else (especially as an engineer), barring extenuating circumstances. High equity employee #1 or co-founder is the way to go.

High risk, high reward.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#112

Post by wildmusings »

markonthewall wrote: post #90
wildmusings wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're unfairly discounting the essential work done by other people in any business. While we engineer-types are tempted to look down upon sales, marketing, legal, HR, and leadership as do-nothing fluff, those roles can be just as crucial to a business's success as an engineer's. Pay is determined by the supply and demand of labor in the market.

Most professions you are referring to are unionized and defend their interests as a group, if you wait for C-execs to increase salaries of its information workers you might wait a long... long time. They have a board of shareholders to respond to and that is just not in their interest. I am actually quite surprised at the devotion of some people here for their masters. It does provide a beautiful illustration of La B…

>if you wait for C-execs to increase salaries of its information workers you might wait a long... long time.

Actually, you wouldn't wait very long at all, since pay for software engineers is at all-time highs. If you're good (and even if you're not), you can come out of college into a six-figure job in the valley.

I know people who work at Boeing and have to follow union rules. I want no part of that racket. Keeping track of every single minute worked is mandatory and working extra time beyond the allowed maximum can get you fired. It becomes a way for the mediocre and complacent to pull the excellent and ambitious down to their level. The union has repeatedly shot themselves in the foot by forcing outrageous demands on Boeing. Guess what the company is doing in response? Moving more and more operations to South Carolina and China.

There's no place for unions in software, a field of highly-paid knowledge workers that have recruiters emailing them weekly.

>Ordoliberalism like applied in Germany where I worked a couple years provides a quite elegant framework to allow a local form of union so the workers' right can be defended while not impending innovation and regular market dynamics.

The United States is wealthier, more dynamic, and has a lower cost of living than Germany. Why exactly should we copy their model?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#113

Post by toomuchtodo »

geggam wrote: post #108
toomuchtodo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is stopping engineers from saying "I'm going to contribute $1.5m to your bottom line this next year, I want you to pay me $1.4m", but they'll be shown the door because there's a guy that's willing to contribute the same $1.5m in exchange for $100k in compensation. Which is why you should be an owner/competitor versus an employee if you know the business well enough.

The assumption there would be risk is silly. Business structures isolate risk and eliminate that as a problem.

If I'm willing to walk away from a paycheck to eat your margins, I have implicitly agreed to take on a substantial level of risk.

Agree though, risk vs reward.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#114

Post by dudul »

vivekpreddy wrote: post #95
bargl wrote: post #44

I hate this question. I frequently dodge or outright deny answering it. I won't lie about it, I just say, no you don't get that information. To dodge this question I say the following: "I'm looking for compensation in the range of xxxx to XXXX. This obviously depends on the benefits packages, for an awesome benefits package you may be closer to xxxx, if your benefits are bad then you'll need to be closer to XXXX." If…

I've been recruiting for a few years now, and I've always hated asking how much someone is making currently. Have always found it better to ask "what are your compensation expectations?" Puts the ball in the candidate's court and I prefer asking this early in conversations as to make sure we're aligned and no one wastes each others time.

Why not disclose the budget you are working with and ask the candidate if it's in line with their expectations?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#115

Post by ghurlman »

slg wrote: post #58
markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Once I stop reading article after article here and elsewhere about how there just aren't enough developers in the world to fill all the jobs he have now and coming, then I'll buy that we're on a pure supply & demand curve.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#116

Post by cheald »

ghurlman wrote: post #115
slg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Once I stop reading article after article here and elsewhere about how there just aren't enough developers in the world to fill all the jobs he have now and coming, then I'll buy that we're on a pure supply & demand curve.

"There aren't enough developers" is explicitly why devs can make six figures rather than $10/hour.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#117

Post by dbingham »

slg wrote: post #58
markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

This reality provides one of the best arguments for a switch from a capitalist economy, in which it is shareholders who have little to do with the creation of value in the economy who ultimately benefit the most from it, to a free market socialist economy (one based on democratically owned worker cooperatives). In an economy based on worker cooperatives, the distinction between "employee" and "owner" is eliminated. Instead of there being competition in the labor market which drives salaries well below the value created by individual laborers, labor simply receives the value it creates.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#118

Post by johnward »

slg wrote: post #58
markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

It should be noted that several tech employers were found to be illegally colluding to artificially lower wages.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#119

Post by blahi »

usaphp wrote: post #71
blahi wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but this is straight up proletariat bull. You get hired, you get paid. If it doesn't pan out, you go somewhere else. You have 0 risk and a guaranteed career. And sorry, but 100k for a javascript "engineer" is more than the "fair share" in my opinion, but it's a market, so it is what it is.

Can you tell me the reason behind you thinking that "100k for a JavaScript engeneer is more than the "fair share"? And why you highlight the word "engeneer"?

Because you can achieve high proficiency rather quickly. Contrast this with engineers who optimize compliers who need much deeper and broader knowledge to make decisions in their day to day work, yet have the same comp. How is this fair? Again, it's a market and it is what it is.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#120

Post by Jakawao »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #92
cheald wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nail on the head right here. The price of an employee isn't their MPL, it's no greater than their MPL and is set by how little the next guy is willing to take to do the job. Competitive pressures work to drive down labor prices, too! Nobody is stopping engineers from saying "I'm going to contribute $1.5m to your bottom line this next year, I want you to pay me $1.4m", but they'll be shown the door because there's a g…

> Nobody is stopping engineers from saying "I'm going to contribute $1.5m to your bottom line this next year, I want you to pay me $1.4m", but they'll be shown the door because there's a guy that's willing to contribute the same $1.5m in exchange for $100k in compensation. Which is why you should be an owner/competitor versus an employee if you know the business well enough.

...but Massachusetts just killed their efforts to reform non-competes.

http://www.wbur.org/morningedition/2016/08/02/non-compete-ag...

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