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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#91

This is so needed in California. My past personal experience and my friends' experience in the Bay Area shows how hard the recruiters can push for the current salary. What they are saying is that we will give you a 10% raise from your current salary, but not what you and we can agree on is your market price. This is so against letting the markets figure it out.

This is precisely letting the markets figuring it out. Those who offer at most 10% increase when a person's value is 50% higher will find themselves missing the good employees and ultimately, failing. --- An example: How much do I offer for this house? I have have no friggin' clue. But I can look at previous sale prices to get an rough idea. Naturally, I if trust my decision to that 100%, I'll risk making a poor deci…

> How much do I offer for this house?

I like the example, but wouldn't it be more parallel to ask "How much have you offered for other houses?" or "How much did your previous house sell for?". The seller would love to know that you are capable of offering more, but you are (properly?) reluctant to give this information.

> But the previous sales are a piece of information about the market that I ought not ignore.

I don't think there is any dispute that this is valuable information to the person doing the hiring. The question is whether it is fair to the person being hired to be asked this question.

Despite the theoretical disadvantage to the business, the current result seems to be that those who are historically disadvantaged will remain disadvantaged, while those who started out with an advantage will be disproportionally rewarded.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#92
post #74
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Nail on the head right here. The price of an employee isn't their MPL, it's no greater than their MPL and is set by how little the next guy is willing to take to do the job. Competitive pressures work to drive down labor prices, too! Nobody is stopping engineers from saying "I'm going to contribute $1.5m to your bottom line this next year, I want you to pay me $1.4m", but they'll be shown the door because there's a g…

> Nobody is stopping engineers from saying "I'm going to contribute $1.5m to your bottom line this next year, I want you to pay me $1.4m", but they'll be shown the door because there's a guy that's willing to contribute the same $1.5m in exchange for $100k in compensation.

Which is why you should be an owner/competitor versus an employee if you know the business well enough.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#93
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Have you ever worked on a project where management considered developers as pretty much interchangeable and added folks to the team that did more damage than good? If so, do you want to repeat that experience?

I'll say this: if you aren't writing code in a way that someone else can pick up the project when you leave, then you are being an irresponsible coder.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#94

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

This is really difficult to quantify, I imagine. Sure, engineers can create very valuable things. They can also create totally useless things (I am one, and I've made my own share of 'useless' features). I don't really see why singling out engineers is really terribly helpful in saying how much they're worth. An engineer can create great value, but if no one is selling it, is it worth much? A company without a direct…

Though I'm not sufficiently familiar w/ Jobs / Woz careers -- I like what you're getting at. I would say that just like there are 10x engineers, there's 10x Product managers / CEOs (really, just 10x people in general). They are few and far between (or, I've never met one) -- but if you got one, I can't imagine its possible to overpay them.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#95
post #44

I hate this question. I frequently dodge or outright deny answering it. I won't lie about it, I just say, no you don't get that information. To dodge this question I say the following: "I'm looking for compensation in the range of xxxx to XXXX. This obviously depends on the benefits packages, for an awesome benefits package you may be closer to xxxx, if your benefits are bad then you'll need to be closer to XXXX." If…

I've been recruiting for a few years now, and I've always hated asking how much someone is making currently. Have always found it better to ask "what are your compensation expectations?" Puts the ball in the candidate's court and I prefer asking this early in conversations as to make sure we're aligned and no one wastes each others time.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#96
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Assuming perfect information , yes, "supply and demand". Since you are so eager to offhand dismiss people, you can now research that one condition you conveniently left out.

>Assuming perfect information, yes, "supply and demand". Since you are so eager to offhand dismiss people, you can now research that one condition you conveniently left out.

There's plenty of information about salaries at software companies floating around. Everyone knows (or could know with a quick search) what the salary for each level at the big tech firms are, as well as what the typical pay at startups is.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#97
post #58

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Agreed. In my field, physics, salaries are low precisely because supply is high.

The work is hard, and demands a lot of training/skill, but there are a lot of people who will do almost anything to stay in the field. One of the things they can do is accept a lower-than-tech-market salary.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#98
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

Assuming perfect information , yes, "supply and demand". Since you are so eager to offhand dismiss people, you can now research that one condition you conveniently left out.

[deleted]

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#99
post #57
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a common saying "Nobody ever gets rich working for someone else". I am not sure how much that is backed up by any statistics but the Bay Area and employees of unicorns or Google/Apple/Amazon/Microsoft/... may be outliers to this adage. Anyway the point I am trying to make is that as an engineer you either have the choice of working for an employer and living an albeit comfortable life (without any risk) or go…

This adage is used mostly by snake oil salesmen slinging get-rich-quick schemes. Working for somebody else is probably the best way to get rich. Putting a qualification here, rich is not filthy rich, but affluent to comfortably rich.

   >but affluent to comfortably rich.
What does that even mean? It's kind of rare that someone will pay you enough money that you can live off your investments.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#100
post #58

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

But is it ok for competition to kill the value of developers work (in the benefit of managers/founders and whomever else)? The actual point I think is to get developers to understand they need to lift the bar higher because it's now set too far from the value they actually create.
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