Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay • Hacker News Board

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#61

Post by bduerst » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #17

siculars wrote: post #12

This. Negotiating a compensation package, in general, is asymmetric information warfare. Having to reveal your salary history you may as well not even negotiate. I know so many women who are constantly bit by this and negotiating in general. Here's an idea: compensation agents who negotiate the compensation package on your behalf. Athletes and actors have them, why not everyone else?

> I know so many women who are constantly bit by this and negotiating in general. Here's an idea: compensation agents who negotiate the compensation package on your behalf. Athletes and actors have them, why not everyone else? Because most other workers aren't, even with an agent, going to get paid enough more to make it worthwhile to pay a competent agent to negotiate on their behalf.

I agree, but smaller payscales means both sides are less willing to negotiate - i.e. an employer would be less willing to negotiate a programmer position as fiercely as an NBA team would for a starting slot.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#62

Post by up_and_up » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

Feel free to tell them what you make just add 15-40% to that number. This has worked well for me. Employers seem happy as well.

Example:

Assuming your current salary is X. "So I currently make (X * 1.20), but in order to make the jump I need at least (X * 1.40)."

That way they get to feel out immediately whether they can afford you, you get the salary that would motivate you, and no one is wasting time in the hiring process.

Keep in mind many employers wont want to pay you more than 8-10% more than what you "currently make" unless they are incredibly motivated to hire you and you alone.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#63

Post by dsp1234 » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

lewisl9029 wrote: post #15

siculars wrote: post #12

This. Negotiating a compensation package, in general, is asymmetric information warfare. Having to reveal your salary history you may as well not even negotiate. I know so many women who are constantly bit by this and negotiating in general. Here's an idea: compensation agents who negotiate the compensation package on your behalf. Athletes and actors have them, why not everyone else?

> Here's an idea: compensation agents who negotiate the compensation package on your behalf. Athletes and actors have them, why not everyone else? I'd definitely be willing to pay for something like this. Make it commission based (pay as a percentage of additional salary negotiated) and the incentives between the negotiator and client will be perfectly aligned.

the incentives between the negotiator and client will be perfectly aligned.

I'm not sure that this is the case when talking about such low amounts.

Taking hints from a similar "agent with percentage", think real estate agents. Unless an agent is working with pretty high level homes, the 3% they are getting is not significantly effected by a something like 20k up or down on a $300k house. It's an extra $600, but often their time is better spent getting the deal closed as quickly as possible for as many people as possible. If that $20k for the client takes an extra few days the haggle, the agent could have been working with another client on another $300k house deal.

In both cases, the thing that throws the agent and client out of alignment is the fact that the deals come through very infrequently, thus from the agent's perspective, they need to keep clients hustled through the door in order to be able to keep their own cash flow going, and working extra hard for a minimal gain isn't going to generally effect future gains. Most engineers would just use the same agent regardless unless the agent was spectacularly bad.

(and there are way more rules for real estate agents than there would be for a hypothetical engineer's agent)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#64

Post by JonFish85 » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

This is really difficult to quantify, I imagine. Sure, engineers can create very valuable things. They can also create totally useless things (I am one, and I've made my own share of 'useless' features).

I don't really see why singling out engineers is really terribly helpful in saying how much they're worth. An engineer can create great value, but if no one is selling it, is it worth much? A company without a direction can have great engineers but crater without good leaders. Without accountants, the money would be in shambles. Without IT, nothing would get done in a larger company. Without designers, user experience would likely suck so bad as to get in the way of the product.

It's hard to say that engineers necessarily deserve a larger slice of the pie. As it stands, we/they're paid quite handsomely. But I think to try to make it out to be something almost mythical seems unfair to everyone else.

Look at Apple, for instance. Without Steve Jobs, it almost certainly wouldn't be what it is today. Steve Wozniak is by all accounts an excellent engineer, but without Jobs' vision and drive, Apple wouldn't ever have taken off. Of the two of them, Jobs was the much more "valuable" by that measure.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#65

Post by douche » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

fdsaaf wrote: post #18

inlined wrote: post #10

Candidates "may" offer this information upfront? I feel like I'm watching Office Space "Am I supposed to tell you my salary before even hearing your initial offer?" "Some employees choose to offer salary information, and we encourage that"

That's why the measure comes across as empty pandering. (Hint: you can tell it's pandering because all the rationale is gender gap bullshit instead of the job application process being shitty for everyone.) If Massachusetts really wanted to improve the strength of employees with respect to employers, the legislature would do things like ban non-competes, ban non- solicits , clarify IP assignment rules, and ban mandat…

Well, it is Massachusetts, after all. Effectiveness is less important than ideology. They could also cut some of their ridiculous taxations, if they want to be more competitive. Switching from working and living in MA to working and living in NH is worth almost a 10% pay bump.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#66

Post by samsonradu » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

blahi wrote: post #42

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

Sorry, but this is straight up proletariat bull. You get hired, you get paid. If it doesn't pan out, you go somewhere else. You have 0 risk and a guaranteed career. And sorry, but 100k for a javascript "engineer" is more than the "fair share" in my opinion, but it's a market, so it is what it is.

True, but it doesn't work like that in many parts of the world. I personally know Javascript engineers working for 20k just for geographical reasons and, like GP said, they should all smarten up imo.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#67

Post by nck4222 » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

inlined wrote: post #10

Candidates "may" offer this information upfront? I feel like I'm watching Office Space "Am I supposed to tell you my salary before even hearing your initial offer?" "Some employees choose to offer salary information, and we encourage that"

Except this would now be illegal, and while some companies/employers are shady and will try this, having this law is better than not having it.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#68

Post by markonthewall » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

deskamess wrote: post #51

llamataboot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hardly think underpaid engineers are the main problem with our economy. We could start by looking at, oh I dunno, teachers?

Why not raise all deserving boats?

Sorry but the above poster does not handle parallel operations yet, come back for v2.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#69

Post by wildmusings » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I think you're unfairly discounting the essential work done by other people in any business. While we engineer-types are tempted to look down upon sales, marketing, legal, HR, and leadership as do-nothing fluff, those roles can be just as crucial to a business's success as an engineer's. Pay is determined by the supply and demand of labor in the market.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#70

Post by DicksenZuider » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

blahi wrote: post #42

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

Sorry, but this is straight up proletariat bull. You get hired, you get paid. If it doesn't pan out, you go somewhere else. You have 0 risk and a guaranteed career. And sorry, but 100k for a javascript "engineer" is more than the "fair share" in my opinion, but it's a market, so it is what it is.

Prices for goods and services are determined by supply and demand, not by what, "in your opinion", is "fair".