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The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

stactivist.com

61–70 of 204 posts

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#61

I'm a true believer of monkey see and monkey do. Unfortunately much of our entertainment deals with the ugly side of human nature. The most popular comedies deal with insults and getting back at people. You can say the same for other forms of entertainment. This includes what goes by as news. Yes, NEWS. I understand that it's make believe and it happens to others but lines are crossed that where there for a reason. Y…

I tend to agree. For example, I know some parents who could always tell when their son and daughter had watched The Disney Channel at a friend's house. For days afterward their kids would be sarcastic and obnoxious—imitating every tween show on that channel. They weren't allowed to watch the channel in their own house for that reason, because it had such a negative effect on their behavior.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#62
post #6

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

I'm glad to hear that an experienced editor sees HN that way, and also that you see evidence of a repeatable approach. Those are good signs. As I'm sure you know, it's a more complex problem than just being willing or unwilling to put up with bad behavior. There are costs to addressing it—quite a few, it turns out, no matter what approach one takes. Our plan is to move HN toward more community self-regulation. Each s…

IMO the biggest challenge of self-moderating communities is avoiding the echo chamber effect: ideas surviving and spreading due to their popularity, rather than their merit.

I'm curious if you agree that this is a problem, and what your plans are to address it, if you do.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#63
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Many people do not know how to address bad behavior that doesn't involve some form of fighting, punishment, etc and this tends to deepen the problem rather than resolve it. While I would agree with this, I would add that banning and punishing people only makes them try harder to continue to be the thorn in your side and make every else just that much more miserable. Multiple accounts, using proxies, and other mean…

A few people will do this. Most people won't, in my experience, especially if you use hellbanning. I've seen HN accounts full of rude comments that have been hellbanned for years.

Is that a different term for "shadow banning"? I only recently came to know this while reading more about moderation techniques.

Apparently people will be allowed to say whatever they want but nobody will see it? I wasn't aware HN had this.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#64
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people who are genuinely toxic. If they get in your company, they'll destroy it. (The worst I've ever seen, I fortunately never had to work with. But if I did, I would make it clear to management that it was me or him within five minutes of his being hired.) Then there are people who are genuinely too thin skinned. If you listen to their complaints, they'll lead you to destroy your company, because you'll p…

Five minutes seems awfully short. What made you so sure so fast?

The fact that he accused us of hiding the truth from him in the first five minutes, and claimed to have exposed it. (And it was over something where we had told him the straight truth.)

I mean, it was an adversarial situation rather than a co-worker one (he was buying a line of business from us), but I saw enough to be fairly sure that he's toxic even when he's "on the same side" as you.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#65

Actually I see the present problem as exactly the opposite. More and more we live in a culture where people think it's their right to feel offended and for anyone saying anything that makes them fell that way to just be shut up by someone (some faculty department for instance). It is becoming basically a Politically Correct culture of censorship and we keep seeing opinion texts (just like this one) that appeal to tha…

There are people who are genuinely toxic. If they get in your company, they'll destroy it. (The worst I've ever seen, I fortunately never had to work with. But if I did, I would make it clear to management that it was me or him within five minutes of his being hired.) Then there are people who are genuinely too thin skinned. If you listen to their complaints, they'll lead you to destroy your company, because you'll p…

> ut some of the "thin skinned" stuff is realizing that people shouldn't have to put up with things that used to be considered "normal". Sometimes we grow up and realize that what we used to do was really pretty crummy. For those who haven't realized that yet, it looks like people becoming more thin skinned. (I'm not saying that this is your situation. But if you perceive others as becoming too thin skinned toward specific behavior, you maybe should at least consider whether that behavior is as benign as you think.)

I'm old enough to have watched this "political correctness" phenomenon rise up and take hold of the masses. I understand it as a reaction to overt racism and actual hatred, but it goes too far and stifles discussion where it's needed the most. A lot of people grow up racist, or sexist or otherwise dismissive of large portions of humanity based on their upbringing. Sometimes they can get past it, other times they can't or won't. Political correctness, for all of it's appeal as "the right thing to do", takes away options people have for getting past their own prejudices.

It's also possible that people can use racist or sexist terms and not really mean anything by it. Hell, growing up Pollack jokes were all the rage when I was maybe 8 or 9. I don't know if I've ever met someone from Poland. They were just a stand in for "someone stupid", for whatever reason.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that the intention of the communication should be taken into consideration, not just the exact words or phrases used. We should also not be afraid to confront topics that are otherwise taboo. If people are civil and friendly, such conversations can be more helpful than harmful sometimes.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#66
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad to hear that an experienced editor sees HN that way, and also that you see evidence of a repeatable approach. Those are good signs. As I'm sure you know, it's a more complex problem than just being willing or unwilling to put up with bad behavior. There are costs to addressing it—quite a few, it turns out, no matter what approach one takes. Our plan is to move HN toward more community self-regulation. Each s…

IMO the biggest challenge of self-moderating communities is avoiding the echo chamber effect: ideas surviving and spreading due to their popularity, rather than their merit. I'm curious if you agree that this is a problem, and what your plans are to address it, if you do.

I think you're really overestimating the relevance of moderation on that, in lieu of, (for example,) the education level, ages, and number of people and their investments in the community.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#67
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few people will do this. Most people won't, in my experience, especially if you use hellbanning. I've seen HN accounts full of rude comments that have been hellbanned for years.

Is that a different term for "shadow banning"? I only recently came to know this while reading more about moderation techniques. Apparently people will be allowed to say whatever they want but nobody will see it? I wasn't aware HN had this.

Check your profile settings. There should be one called "Showdead." Turn it to "yes."

If it is already at "yes," then you may have just not noticed because it looks similar to when someone's comment has been flagged to death or downvoted into the negatives.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#68
post #36

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

I suspect the answer is something along the lines of: The subject matter and associated demographics of some sites is such that, with appropriate moderation systems and commitment to consistently dealing with bad (or at least the worst) behavior, discussion forums can maintain a reasonable signal to noise ratio. The worst offenders usually get bored and go away after being banned enough times. But a site that deals p…

Yeah, the topic point is a good one here. Some stuff (like the aforementioned politics, religion, controversial issues, anything 'illegal') tend towards lower quality discourse partly due to the demographics that use said sites.

Meanwhile, something fairly benign or less popular will tend to draw a much more civil audience.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#69
post #7

"Vanishing" implies that there was some Golden Age of civility that has now gone by. This is not really true. I would argue that this impression comes from the fact that media options were much more limited in the recent past, and therefore had to appeal to and not offend a wider range of audiences than current sources. Watching TV programs from the 50s/60s, for example, they do seem quite polite and civil. Now thoug…

Yes! This is the inevitable outcome of the world of connectedness and giving a voice to the voiceless that we all wanted isn't it?

It comes off as overly cynical, but this seems to me to merely be the removal of a veil of ignorance about what people actually think and how they actually want to behave when they are either anonymous or not present physically (with the possibility of having their mirror neurons engaged, physical assault, in person shaming, etc).

If it wasn't obvious beforehand, then it must be obvious in retrospect that a culture war was the inevitable result right?

While I agree that the responsibility falls on the individuals taking part ... pragmatically isn't the outrage economy going to work for a long time? And the physiological tools for encouraging uncivil behaviour just going to keep getting better for a long time? I have my doubts that any significant percentage of people will be able to follow that path of individual responsibility when so many smart people are constantly trying to nudge them off of it using subtle methods the targets don't even understand.

Calls of "can't we all just get along", whether directed against physical violence or uncivil discourse, however correct, never seem to do much when the problem is occurring in a system that benefits from the opposite.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#70
post #7

"Vanishing" implies that there was some Golden Age of civility that has now gone by. This is not really true. I would argue that this impression comes from the fact that media options were much more limited in the recent past, and therefore had to appeal to and not offend a wider range of audiences than current sources. Watching TV programs from the 50s/60s, for example, they do seem quite polite and civil. Now thoug…

I don't know. Usually I recoil from nostalgic rememberings of the way things used to be but I believe that people tended to be more respectful to one another in the past, even if they were assholes.
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