The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
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Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
#2A little meta-civility goes a long way, too. If one is inclined to call people jerks, bozos and assholes, perhaps one is not understanding people very well.
It’s much more effective to work learn about people, their predilections, biases and experiences. No one is a “checkbox” asshole. Much better to focus on specific behaviors, instead of writing off a person as a type.
When I see a company describe its “no assholes” rule, I see a company inclined toward calling people assholes.
Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
#3When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests that the problem exists primarily b/c sites are willing to put up with bad behavior.
Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
#4A little meta-civility goes a long way, too. If one is inclined to call people jerks, bozos and assholes, perhaps one is not understanding people very well. It’s much more effective to work learn about people, their predilections, biases and experiences. No one is a “checkbox” asshole. Much better to focus on specific behaviors, instead of writing off a person as a type. When I see a company describe its “no assholes…
> When I see a company describe its “no asshole” rule, I see a company inclined toward calling people assholes.
http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2014/8/17/ho...
Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
#5I want to inline a linked reference and provide a summary as a form of protecting the reference against link-rot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule
Their unpleasant behaviours were catalogued by Sutton as The Dirty Dozen: (Robert Cipriano (2011), "No Jerks Allowed in This Department", Facilitating a Collegial Department in Higher Education, John Wiley and Sons, ISBN 978-1-118-10764-5)
Insults
Violation of personal space
Unsolicited touching
Threats
Sarcasm
Flames
Humiliation
Shaming
Interruption
Backbiting
Glaring
Snubbing
Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
#6When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…
I'm glad to hear that an experienced editor sees HN that way, and also that you see evidence of a repeatable approach. Those are good signs.
As I'm sure you know, it's a more complex problem than just being willing or unwilling to put up with bad behavior. There are costs to addressing it—quite a few, it turns out, no matter what approach one takes.
Our plan is to move HN toward more community self-regulation. Each step we've taken that way—e.g. when we added vouching for dead comments—has worked well. I doubt the community can become completely autonomous (though a mod can dream), but we're pretty sure it can go further in that direction, especially if we do a good job of specifying what kind of site HN is, and isn't, supposed to be.
Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
#7"Vanishing" implies that there was some Golden Age of civility that has now gone by. This is not really true.
I would argue that this impression comes from the fact that media options were much more limited in the recent past, and therefore had to appeal to and not offend a wider range of audiences than current sources. Watching TV programs from the 50s/60s, for example, they do seem quite polite and civil. Now though, options abound. Why should I watch a whitewashed and generic news program when I can listen to vitriolic talk radio or scroll through my website of choice and see exactly what I want to see? Not to mention that every "jerk/bozo/asshole" can pour his heart out online.
The downfall of the previously-more-mainstream Mainstream Media has simply enabled more impolite and "uncivil" voices to stand out from the crowd (for better or worse).
As far as personal and professional interaction, the responsibility for maintaining civility in such environments falls on the individuals taking part. Don't tolerate bullshit from employees. Be respectful to your friends/family, and expect the same in return.
Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
#8Recommended reading: "Assholes, a Theory", by Aaron James. This is a serious analysis of asshole behavior and why society rewards it. The latter is the key point. There are benefits to being an asshole in some organizations.
Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
#9Actually I see the present problem as exactly the opposite.
More and more we live in a culture where people think it's their right to feel offended and for anyone saying anything that makes them fell that way to just be shut up by someone (some faculty department for instance).
It is becoming basically a Politically Correct culture of censorship and we keep seeing opinion texts (just like this one) that appeal to that censorship like if it was a good thing.
I don't see it as more and more people becoming jerks, I see it as more and more people becoming thin skinned.
Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes
#10I want to inline a linked reference and provide a summary as a form of protecting the reference against link-rot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule Their unpleasant behaviours were catalogued by Sutton as The Dirty Dozen: (Robert Cipriano (2011), "No Jerks Allowed in This Department", Facilitating a Collegial Department in Higher Education, John Wiley and Sons, ISBN 978-1-118-10764-5) Insults Violatio…
The problem with this list is that there are vastly more refined ways of being an asshole, which no list can catch.
So these coarse lists are often suggested by the refined assholes so that no one can call them out.
Civility is a very powerful weapon of keeping power structures in place.