America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems • Hacker News Board

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#61

Post by zeroer » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #27

dalke wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's absurd, please explain p.26 of https://snowdenarchive.cjfe.org/greenstone/collect/snowden1/... where we see the USS Annapolis being used for interactive operations ("Connection via: NEPTUNETHUNDER, BLINDDATE/HAPPYHOUR", "Successful exploits at 4, 6, ad 8 NM with 4 watt access point") and for man-on-the-side operations ("Inject using BLINDDATE/NITESTAND", "Successful inject at 4NM to 100mw client computer"). O…

Those are tests, not operations. They were against friendly targets, specifically consumer wifi/bluetooth devices (based on the wattages). Had the target been actively looking for attacks, the sub would have been located within seconds. You wouldn't do this against an attacker with any ability to respond physically. The only time this would be useful would be against an unsophisticated target, but then why bother wit…

> 1/0 less lives on the line

It's just 100% fewer lives on the line.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#62

Post by pests » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 8:59 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #22

jonknee wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't count it out, but obviously all the specifics are highly classified. The USS Jimmy Carter is the sub (or one of?) we probably use for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Jimmy_Carter It is 100' longer than other subs in the same class thanks to special equipment "which allows launch and recovery of ROVs and Navy SEAL forces".

No doubt people have discussed the concept. If I were a navy looking for funding, or just another use for an existing sub, I would definitely propose it. But I don't see the practicality of going through all that effort for rather limited gain. If this is an enemy cable, it will be encrypted. If it is a privately-owned cable (internet) then it can more easily be tapped on land or via a standard ship. I suspect that e…

Why another cable? You would have one right in front of you. Loop back the splice into another fiber in the same cable toy have access to.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#63

Post by intrasight » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC

I would have thought that by now that the interesting stuff would be flowing through cables using Quantum Key Distribution (QKD)

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#64

Post by nabla9 » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #29

sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

I wouldn't put it beyond the capabilities of a nation state to tap fiber by putting a kink in it and processing the light that leaks out.

There are high speed SONET/SDH (common transport layer protocol ) encryptors available. I would assume that any undersea cables providers who might expect US tapping would use them. Especially if one endpoint is in Russia or China.

https://infoguard.ch/pdf/products/ig_sonet_e.pdf

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#65

Post by theCricketer » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 9:49 PM UTC

> These days, some U.S. subs come equipped with sophisticated antennas that can be used to intercept and manipulate other people's communications traffic, particularly on weak or unencrypted networks.

Isn't (most of) the communication over these links encrypted? What is the point of tapping into the information flow? Is it possible that they are able to decrypt it?

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#66

Post by widforss » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 10:05 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Jerry2 wrote: post #7

If this sort of stuff interets you, I highly recommend the book "Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage". [0] It tells the story of Cold War espionage from the submarine warfare point of view. The book also covers "Operation Ivy Bells" which was a joint Navy/CIA/NSA mission whose objective was to place wire taps on Soviet underwater communication lines during the Cold War. [1] Sub placed…

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

Why not just tap at the repeaters? The signal has to be electrical there, and you can probably make it so that maintainance teams don't notice the tap.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#67

Post by jacobush » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

Gravityloss wrote: post #46

tomkinstinch wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bending isn't required, and the transparency of the jacket doesn't matter if it's thin enough. The term to Google is "evanescent wave coupling."

There is even a "laser razor" kickstarter that utilizes the effect. When a beard hair goes near the fiber, the light escapes from the fiber, and burns the hair, cutting it.

Hoax tho

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#68

Post by knowaveragejoe » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #58

mirimir wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. And if the US has been doing this for a decade or more, you'd think that at least one of the taps would have been discovered.

Discovered by who? I'm pretty sure the CIA/NSA will just "disappear" anyone who tries to report the anomaly.

You're pretty sure?

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#69

Post by mmaunder » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

"...mast-mounted antennas and collection systems atop the conning tower, some of them one-of-a-kind devices made for hard to reach or specific targets, all of them black boxes of future war."

That's a quote in the article from a source who is another pair of journalists writing for Gawker.

RF doesn't propagate well through water - in fact VLF is best and only goes to about 20 meters depth. Subs are most vulnerable when on the surface.

So the idea that we'd be using underwater manned platforms at a cost of $1.7 billion each to monitor enemy radio from the conning tower (without even using a buoy) seems a bit absurd to me.

The NRO has launched 3 spy satellites already this year. They're monitoring signals from within 150 miles using high gain antennas without the constraints of salt water, risk of detection and negative effects of a low altitude antenna and a tiny radio horizon.

I too want to believe we have badass hacker subs, but this feels like laying the groundwork for a budget request.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#70

Post by awqrre » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 11:02 PM UTC

stephengillie wrote: post #15

chinathrow wrote: post #5

Assume all oceanic cables rigged. The CIA has been doing this for decades. Added: https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/...

Welcome to the fish bowl. But don't worry too much. As recent terrorist acts have shown, our intelligence communities retain their efficacy in the face of modern technological advances.

They don't use this information for preventing terrorist attacks... it is more to gain an economic advantage.