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America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

washingtonpost.com

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Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#21

Post by ju-st »

jonknee wrote: post #19
sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

I wouldn't count it out, but obviously all the specifics are highly classified. The USS Jimmy Carter is the sub (or one of?) we probably use for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Jimmy_Carter It is 100' longer than other subs in the same class thanks to special equipment "which allows launch and recovery of ROVs and Navy SEAL forces".

Wikipedia even references to multiple sources: "Intelligence experts speculate that the MMP may find use in similar missions as an underwater splicing chamber for Optical fiber cables.[7][8][9][10]"

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#22

Post by sandworm101 »

jonknee wrote: post #19
sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

I wouldn't count it out, but obviously all the specifics are highly classified. The USS Jimmy Carter is the sub (or one of?) we probably use for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Jimmy_Carter It is 100' longer than other subs in the same class thanks to special equipment "which allows launch and recovery of ROVs and Navy SEAL forces".

No doubt people have discussed the concept. If I were a navy looking for funding, or just another use for an existing sub, I would definitely propose it. But I don't see the practicality of going through all that effort for rather limited gain. If this is an enemy cable, it will be encrypted. If it is a privately-owned cable (internet) then it can more easily be tapped on land or via a standard ship. I suspect that even an enemy cable, if it is in public waters, could be spliced far more effectively by a surface ship.

Once the tap is in place, how do you get the information from the tap back to HQ? The sub won't have the manpower and computers needed to gain meaningful intel from such a cable. Getting the data back to shore would require either another cable or an in situ recording device a la ivy bells. Recording devices would both delay any data by weeks/months and limit the ability to insert data, an essential task when attacking encrypted connections.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#23

Post by dalke »

sandworm101 wrote: post #8

I'm calling BS on this. The stealthiness of a sub, it's only real purpose, is defeated the moment you start transmitting via a big antenna. It wouldn't happen. Subs no doubt are used for surveillance, but the concept of them sitting offshore and actively "hacking" communications is absurd. It would be a suicide mission with a billion-dollar asset. The OP reads like a funding request. It's a pitch for a world where ha…

If it's absurd, please explain p.26 of https://snowdenarchive.cjfe.org/greenstone/collect/snowden1/... where we see the USS Annapolis being used for interactive operations ("Connection via: NEPTUNETHUNDER, BLINDDATE/HAPPYHOUR", "Successful exploits at 4, 6, ad 8 NM with 4 watt access point") and for man-on-the-side operations ("Inject using BLINDDATE/NITESTAND", "Successful inject at 4NM to 100mw client computer").

Or to p.27 with a flowchart of the "Afloat Computer Network Operations", which uses Fleet Comms to connect to the Annapolis, which connects to a set of antennas?

You wrote "subs won't be at the center of the flowchart", but the sub literally is the closest box to the center of that flowchart.

(This is from an April 2012 document which is part of the Snowden leak.)

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#24

Post by nstj »

josh2600 wrote: post #10
chrisseaton wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to reply that this was surely nonsense and I've seen the thick cables the size of a man's leg, but as the article says these images we've seen are only for shallow areas and the majority of the cable really is just the size of a marker pen, shielded with just a few millimetres of plastic.

http://mikesenese.com/DOIT/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Unders... ^undersea cables are typically made up of a central fiber line, which look like human hairs in a small tube, and a shell of insulation and copper. You need power to send the signal across the ocean floor and, as we do not generate electricity underwater, all of the current needs to be sent from one end to the other to power all of the repeaters along the…

> The nearer to the surface you get, the more protection—armour—you need to withstand potential disturbances from shipping. Trenches are dug and cables buried in shallow waters coming up onto shore. At greater depths, though, areas such as the West European Basin, which is almost three miles from the surface, there’s no need for armour, as merchant shipping poses no threat at all to cables on the seabed

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/05/how-th...

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#25

Post by arethuza »

On a related note I can strongly recommend The Silent Deep which goes into a lot of detail about what Royal navy submarines got up to in the Cold War:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0171SWRGI/ref=dp-kindle-redirec...

e.g. Operation Barmaid, where a nuclear submarines was equipped with a giant set of cutters to allow it to cut and steal the towed sonar array from a Warsaw Pact vessel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Conqueror_(S48)#Operation_...

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#26

Post by Jerry2 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #16
Jerry2 wrote: post #7

If this sort of stuff interets you, I highly recommend the book "Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage". [0] It tells the story of Cold War espionage from the submarine warfare point of view. The book also covers "Operation Ivy Bells" which was a joint Navy/CIA/NSA mission whose objective was to place wire taps on Soviet underwater communication lines during the Cold War. [1] Sub placed…

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

>Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines.

That's an excellent point but I think they have a way to lift the cable off the seabed and make a splice even though it's hard. NSA are masters of making the impossible work.

What I can't figure out is how they collect the data. These optical cables carry tens of terabits of data per second so how do you store & transmit it back for analysis? I'm guessing they filter some of it but you still end up with lots of bits.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#27

Post by sandworm101 »

dalke wrote: post #23
sandworm101 wrote: post #8

I'm calling BS on this. The stealthiness of a sub, it's only real purpose, is defeated the moment you start transmitting via a big antenna. It wouldn't happen. Subs no doubt are used for surveillance, but the concept of them sitting offshore and actively "hacking" communications is absurd. It would be a suicide mission with a billion-dollar asset. The OP reads like a funding request. It's a pitch for a world where ha…

If it's absurd, please explain p.26 of https://snowdenarchive.cjfe.org/greenstone/collect/snowden1/... where we see the USS Annapolis being used for interactive operations ("Connection via: NEPTUNETHUNDER, BLINDDATE/HAPPYHOUR", "Successful exploits at 4, 6, ad 8 NM with 4 watt access point") and for man-on-the-side operations ("Inject using BLINDDATE/NITESTAND", "Successful inject at 4NM to 100mw client computer"). O…

Those are tests, not operations. They were against friendly targets, specifically consumer wifi/bluetooth devices (based on the wattages). Had the target been actively looking for attacks, the sub would have been located within seconds. You wouldn't do this against an attacker with any ability to respond physically. The only time this would be useful would be against an unsophisticated target, but then why bother with the sub?

An airborne drone could do, does, the same job at 0.01% of the cost and 1/0 less lives on the line. The sub is ridiculous overkill.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#28

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

Jerry2 wrote: post #7

If this sort of stuff interets you, I highly recommend the book "Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage". [0] It tells the story of Cold War espionage from the submarine warfare point of view. The book also covers "Operation Ivy Bells" which was a joint Navy/CIA/NSA mission whose objective was to place wire taps on Soviet underwater communication lines during the Cold War. [1] Sub placed…

A tangential story mentioned in Simon Singh's 'Code' (excellent read) is that a mole was caught sending secrets to the Soviets based on intel from the taps. They didn't want to tip the Russians off though so he was never prosecuted. Instead they fed him with phony documents to keep the taps secret.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#29

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

sandworm101 wrote: post #16
Jerry2 wrote: post #7

If this sort of stuff interets you, I highly recommend the book "Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage". [0] It tells the story of Cold War espionage from the submarine warfare point of view. The book also covers "Operation Ivy Bells" which was a joint Navy/CIA/NSA mission whose objective was to place wire taps on Soviet underwater communication lines during the Cold War. [1] Sub placed…

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

I wouldn't put it beyond the capabilities of a nation state to tap fiber by putting a kink in it and processing the light that leaks out.
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