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Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

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Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#91
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still not supporting your claim. > we don't know by how much This is a measurable (and measured) thing. We know exactly how much the Earth has already warmed. We do not know exactly how much it will warm in the future, but we know how much it has warmed. And the articles are also not nearly as pessimistic about how good our estimates are. You're acting as if we're flying blind just because our models are imperfect. >…

I don't think that word "exactly" means what you think it means. And you're misrepresentating what I said. I didn't say our estimates were getting worse. I made it clear they would simply would be lower than before. And both articles I linked made it clear that the new estimates would be improved. You're splitting hairs about nothing when you aren't representing what I said. Have a good day.

No, you're downplaying the magnitude of global warming an implying that the future impact has been drastically overstated. It's not splitting hairs. You're presenting a small revision to our understanding of global warming as if it undermines our predictions, and your own sources do not support what you're saying. This is dishonest.

I hope you have a great day, too.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#92
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so you just don't believe climate change exists.

You've changed this post at least two times since I first tried to respond to it; I can't write a coherent response if you keep on deleting your post and re-writing it. And I never said that I 'don't believe climate change exists'; as a matter of fact, I avoid the issue of consensus/reality entirely, as it has become a morass of tribal politics, where each side rejects the arguments of the other out of hand.

> And I never said that I 'don't believe climate change exists'

The only way you'd be consistent was if you had imo. YMMV.

Now, all you've established is my original belief was correct.

> You've changed this post at least two times since I first tried to respond to it; I can't write a coherent response if you keep on deleting your post and re-writing it.

You rewrote your post after I posted the first one.

Pot meet kettle.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#93
post #67
post #2

I would expect him to make any argument he can against fossil fuels. He is heavily invested in solar technology.

Musk has a history of using any available argument to advocate taxing/banning his competition; he has no intellectually consistent ideology. I say this as someone who believes SpaceX is the most important company founded since 1980, that humans must go to Mars, and will probably do it on Musk's MCT/BFR. On the Tesla side, Musk has advocated subsidies for electric vehicles, taxes, caps, and other limits on gasoline/Di…

So, you're saying there's no intellectually-consistent reason that anyone would oppose depending on Russian rocket engines for national security-related launches, while being for more competition in the rocket launch market?

Also, you should note that the entire point of a carbon tax is to replace everything in your middle paragraph with something that's more intellectually-consistent.

Telling someone else that they aren't intellectually consistent almost never works. You'll almost always get a reply, "You're misrepresenting my statements, and failing to understand my argument" -- not a good opening to a good discussion.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#94
post #85
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strict libertarianism recognizes central authorities as a role to prevent you from taking from me, which is what distinguishes it from anarchism. Libertarians should like pigou because it's the theoretical most efficient. Of course, auctioned cap and trade turns out to be the most efficient in the real world, because it turns out we're not good at estimating true prices.

There is no such thing as 'strict libertarianism'; libertarianism is a spectrum (with one or more dimensions), with many internal divides including issues such as intellectual property. Depending on the libertarian you speak with, they may argue for a robust system of police, or a 'minarchist' government which only deals with external threats and trade issues. Auctioned cap and trade is good at achieving two objectiv…

Maybe I should have said theoretical or stereotypical. Apologies.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#95
post #4

Coase, Pigou, all these ideas are fairly libertarian, just like other forms of property rights are, and externalities like pollution can be thought of as a form of trespass.

> externalities like pollution can be thought of as a form of trespass Perhaps in theory, but American Libertarianism will never see anyone recovering any losses due to rising CO2 / climate change. You would have to sue someone in court and win. And do you really think you can successfully sue Exxon Mobil when your shellfish farm is ruined because of ocean acidification? This is basically why US Libertarianism is bro…

A cap and trade system where the initial credits were auctioned would be the closest I could imagine to recovering losses, yes.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are going to destroy the oceans that we all rely on for fishing, you should pay for them. You break it you buy it. The idea that someone can just come onto your property and destroy your land, as long as they do it with toxic gasses, is not very libertarian.

Exactly! I hope this is what the op meant. If you are a True Libertarian you should be in favor of the Government regulating air polluters because there is no way to pollute the air (or ocean) without depriving others of their rights.

> there is no way to pollute the air (or ocean) without depriving others of their rights

I mostly agree with this part,

> If you are a True Libertarian you should be in favor of the Government regulating air polluters

but take issue with this part.

As others have pointed out the libertarian position on air pollution, and similarly on other kinds of pollution, is it is a tortious trespass on property and is dealt with through the judicial system. Meaning no regulation or action is needed by government other than the recognition of property rights. This was the position of common law and was abandoned by American courts in the early 20th century.

Now, when you refer to the oceans, which due to government action remain un-ownable, it's more complicated and the libertarian position is that they should be privatized.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#97
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using a tax to force compliance rather than more draconian restrictions may be 'nicer', but is not Liberty. So if I reduce the value of your land by rendering it a desert over a period of years, I am simply exercising my liberty?

You may be committing a tort or trespass, depending on how you do it. There are a great many works on this type of issue, and if you are looking for a complete answer, I suggest you read them. If you are trying to 'catch me out', your rhetoric won't convince me, nor is it likely to convince anyone else.

• Scenario 1

I build my factory next to your land. A byproduct of my factory is a bunch of polluted water, which drains strait onto your land, causing much damage.

The tort system could deal with this fine [1]. You can easily prove that it was the pollution from my factory that damaged your land.

This may not be a good way to deal with it, because (1) it takes effort to take someone to court, which many small landowners may not have the time for and so will discourage them from defending their property rights, and (2) it assumes that only the monetary value of your land is important and thus it is OK for someone to damage your land as long as they pay.

• Scenario 2

I build my factory 1000 miles from your land. My polluted water runs into a nearby river, eventually makes it to the ocean, and some of it eventually ends up on your land.

The tort system is useless to address your injury. There are too many chaotic physical processes between the emission of the pollution at my end and the arrival of pollution at your end for you to prove that any of that pollution came from me. If you sue me, my defense is that there are hundreds or thousands of other factories polluting, and for all we know all of my pollution either stayed in the ocean or when it got back to land ended up on land other than yours.

If we modify the tort system so that in the case of pollution we turn the burden of proof around and require the defendant to prove that they did not pollute the plaintiff's property, then you can sort of make it work.

But if we do that, now we've just turned the problem around. It will be almost impossible for me to prove that my pollution did not reach any given plaintiff. Anyone who finds pollution of the type that my factory produces can easily and successfully sue me.

If that's the case, then as soon as you sue me, I'll be filing third party complaints against all the other factories that emit the same kind of pollution, alleging that they are equally responsible for the pollution that damaged you.

Of course, you won't be the only plaintiff suing me, since pollution spreads far and wide from the source. And all of the defendants will be filing third party complaints against all the other defendants. So we'll end up with a bazillion lawsuits, each consisting of one plaintiff with damaged land, and thousands of factory owner defendants. Someone will try and succeed in turning this into a class action.

The class plaintiffs will win, damages will be accessed will be accessed with each factory's share probably proportional to the amount of their pollution, and split among the plaintiffs proportionally to the damage to their land. This only settles things among those defendants and the plaintiffs that are in the class, so this thing will have to be repeated when new plaintiffs arise or new factories are built.

The net result will be that instead of a simple, straightforward, approach of the legislature creating a pollution fee or tax with the proceeds going to pollution cleanup, with the executive handling enforcement, we end up with an ad hoc sort of equivalent cobbled together from the tort system that is costlier, more time consuming, and has a lot more uncertainty (and still needs legislative action to create because it depends on changing the burden of proof in pollution cases).

[1] By "deal with it fine", I mean identify the party responsible for the pollution and make them pay monetary damages. One can make a good case that this is not actually fine, for at least two reasons. First, it assumes that only the monetary value of land is important. Land often has esthetic or sentimental value to people, which they would not give up even for much much more money than anyone else would pay for the land. Second, it takes time and effort to sue someone. Many small landowners would not have the resources for that, and so would have to just suck it up and accept the pollution.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#98
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've changed this post at least two times since I first tried to respond to it; I can't write a coherent response if you keep on deleting your post and re-writing it. And I never said that I 'don't believe climate change exists'; as a matter of fact, I avoid the issue of consensus/reality entirely, as it has become a morass of tribal politics, where each side rejects the arguments of the other out of hand.

> And I never said that I 'don't believe climate change exists' The only way you'd be consistent was if you had imo. YMMV. Now, all you've established is my original belief was correct. > You've changed this post at least two times since I first tried to respond to it; I can't write a coherent response if you keep on deleting your post and re-writing it. You rewrote your post after I posted the first one. Pot meet ke…

It is perfectly consistent to believe that damage is being caused, and that a tax is a bad reaction. It would also be consistent to believe that there is no damage being caused, and that a tax would be bad.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is anybody entitled to free unpolluted oxygen in libertopia?

I'm going to answer your flamebait with a real answer: Because no one can own the air and you do not have a right to pollute something you do not own... further more if you pollute on land you do own you cannot guarantee the pollution will go to land owned by other people. And if you can guarantee that it will stay on your property, win win, we solved global warming!

I disagree that no one can own the air. To clarify, airspace can be homesteaded like any other piece of property. Obviously this is not necessarily the ownership of every air molecule in a given airspace as that would be quite impractical. But just the same, no one can pollute someone else's airspace.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#100
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk has a history of using any available argument to advocate taxing/banning his competition; he has no intellectually consistent ideology. I say this as someone who believes SpaceX is the most important company founded since 1980, that humans must go to Mars, and will probably do it on Musk's MCT/BFR. On the Tesla side, Musk has advocated subsidies for electric vehicles, taxes, caps, and other limits on gasoline/Di…

So, you're saying there's no intellectually-consistent reason that anyone would oppose depending on Russian rocket engines for national security-related launches, while being for more competition in the rocket launch market? Also, you should note that the entire point of a carbon tax is to replace everything in your middle paragraph with something that's more intellectually-consistent. Telling someone else that they…

There are intellectually consistent frameworks which could justify most of Musk's beliefs, but he doesn't appear to abide by any such framework. He has changed his tune on many issues, and his policy positions always seem to be advantageous to his investments; he probably believes in his arguments, but we should be sanguine about their origins.

I happen to agree with him that fuel cells are a bad idea, but I also think that if one is to advocate taxing carbon, they should be advocating the taxation of other emissions and pollution (if they are to be intellectually consistent). I have never heard Musk advocate for something like a battery tax.

I would be flattered if Musk ever replied to anything I'd said, and I am not trying to cause any sort of emotional reaction.

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