Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

rgj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 112 posts

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#51

Post by Miner49er »

elgabogringo wrote: post #19
tmaly wrote: post #2

I would expect him to make any argument he can against fossil fuels. He is heavily invested in solar technology.

Agreed. It's an argument for indirect subsidies to his company on top of the direct subsidies he already receives. Elon Musk is hardly a libertarian. He's just another crony capitalist.

I think you're mistaken. My reading was that he thinks that rather then receiving the subsidies his companies receive, people who emit a lot of greenhouse gases should be taxed. He's not calling for both subsidies and a carbon tax, he's saying a carbon tax makes more sense and is more fair, because the average person already has to pay money for global warming. Fossil fuel companies have an unfair advantage, because they damage other people's property and the people foot the bill.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#52

Post by pininja »

What are the by-products of manufacturing and maintaining batteries and solar panels? I'd like to learn more about the inputs and outputs, then maybe I can learn a better comparison between fossil fuels and solar.

What are we transforming in order to create, store, and consume solar energy and fossil fuel energy?

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#53

Post by merpnderp »

justinhensley wrote: post #45
elgabogringo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh huh. Funny how a billionaire has so easily convinced you that adding costs to his competitors (and consumers) is really "removing a subsidy".

Do you believe in global warming/climate change?

How about the Earth is warming, we don't know by how much, but likely not nearly as much as we previously thought, and we are missing crap tons of data and understanding about how different systems work.

https://home.cern/about/updates/2016/05/cloud-shows-pre-indu...

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#54

Post by eropple »

fncndhdhc wrote: post #42
ancap wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarcho capitalism, which is not necessarily the view of every libertarian (some being "minarchists"), would be the absence of any government authority. Without a government the regulation you speak of is non-existent. There is no contradiction.

...until the interested business parties band together to form a government of sorts for their own benefit.

Precisely. Cartels don't require a government to exist, and the absence of government letting them beat you and kill you and take your stuff makes them easier to entrench. Some of these cartels may even claim land as theirs and exact payments from those under their "protection". We might call them "barons", say, and their henchmen "knights". And these strongmen might, due to relative imbalance of force, have to swear fealty to "counts" and "dukes" and "kings", and whoa I think I just had the weirdest dream, that ancap is an undisguised pathway to corporatist feudalism. Weird.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#55

Post by whamlastxmas »

elgabogringo wrote: post #19
tmaly wrote: post #2

I would expect him to make any argument he can against fossil fuels. He is heavily invested in solar technology.

Agreed. It's an argument for indirect subsidies to his company on top of the direct subsidies he already receives. Elon Musk is hardly a libertarian. He's just another crony capitalist.

If Musk only cared about money he wouldn't be spending so much money on aerospace, automotive, and solar industries. None of them are great money makers.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#56

Post by bhhaskin »

pininja wrote: post #52

What are the by-products of manufacturing and maintaining batteries and solar panels? I'd like to learn more about the inputs and outputs, then maybe I can learn a better comparison between fossil fuels and solar. What are we transforming in order to create, store, and consume solar energy and fossil fuel energy?

Whats worse is the waste left over after a battery is past it life span.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#57

Post by dpark »

JustUhThought wrote: post #16
vorotato wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume by arguing the personal liberty cost of emissions outweighs the personal liberty gained by tax reduction.

I just went and read the Libertarian Party's platform. [1] Under the issue of Environment: "Competitive free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Governments are unaccountable for damage done to our environment and…

Most people who identify as libertarian (little 'l') do not identify as Libertarian (big 'L'). When someone makes a libertarian argument, it's generally not intended to be a Libertarian argument, in the same way that someone making an argument based on democratic principles is generally not making an argument based on the platform of the Democratic party.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#58

Post by ArkyBeagle »

JustUhThought wrote: post #16
vorotato wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume by arguing the personal liberty cost of emissions outweighs the personal liberty gained by tax reduction.

I just went and read the Libertarian Party's platform. [1] Under the issue of Environment: "Competitive free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Governments are unaccountable for damage done to our environment and…

What you describe related to government debt is a really big problem. The eco/land use thing is less so, although constructing an administrative apparatus to implement that seems horrendously expensive. So enter Pigovian taxation.

My very informal and unreliable impression is that most libertarian writers ( who are worth reading ) embrace a Pigou regime as a pallative for managing CO2 in the atmosphere.

Some libertarians espouse land taxation. This exploits the symmetry between the role of government as protector of land ownership and how this is to be paid for. Tax land rents.

And I think there's an argument to be made that income taxation is both a poor proxy for rents and very invasive.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#59

Post by socialist_coder »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #12
unprepare wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wouldnt the libertarian reaction to emissions be to sue the emitter for the lowered quality of air?

Why is anybody entitled to free unpolluted oxygen in libertopia?

Yes, why would humanity be interested in keeping the only environment we currently have in a livable state? It is truly a mystery.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#60

Post by socialist_coder »

mikecb wrote: post #4

Coase, Pigou, all these ideas are fairly libertarian, just like other forms of property rights are, and externalities like pollution can be thought of as a form of trespass.

> externalities like pollution can be thought of as a form of trespass

Perhaps in theory, but American Libertarianism will never see anyone recovering any losses due to rising CO2 / climate change. You would have to sue someone in court and win. And do you really think you can successfully sue Exxon Mobil when your shellfish farm is ruined because of ocean acidification?

This is basically why US Libertarianism is broken. If we truly had a Libertarian government, the environment would be quickly ruined.

Post reply on HN