Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll • Hacker News Board

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#181

Post by soylentcola » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 2:49 PM UTC

schoen wrote: post #161

Bartweiss wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to work out whether "limited hours for an automated system" is a dark pattern, or sheer stupidity. The most horrifying variant I've seen recently was a government website that kept 9am-5pm hours. No human interaction or real-time events anywhere, but logins were locked after business hours. I'm guessing they didn't want to arrange special downtime periods for changes, and the only alternative they could th…

B&H Photo Video famously won't accept online orders on Shabbat (in the time zone of the business in New York). Not just not fulfil the orders then, but not allow users to place them, either. I don't know how they decided to use only the time zone of the company and not the time zone of the person placing the order, and indeed where they see the desecration(s) of the sabbath as occurring if they didn't enforce this po…

I thought it was because their NY office is closed and nobody would be there to maintain systems or assist in the event of any screwups.

But then again, that was just an assumption so I may be way off base.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#182

Post by talmand » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:14 PM UTC

scholia wrote: post #180

talmand wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it's "check this if you don't want it" or "uncheck this if you want it" instead?

You have to pay attention ;-)

I'm referring to people relying on an automated unchecker, which is my point.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#183

Post by gilgongo » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #109

gilgongo wrote: post #95

How does Harry Brignull get his dark patterns site covered so regularly? About once a year for the past decade, somebody does an article about it. Weird. Anyway. I'm a designer and my work has even featured on his site (after he did some freelancing with us - cheeky begger). His implication that people like me sit around trying to making life harder for customers is complete bollocks. We don't. Businesses just don't.…

I did notice that the most common 'trick question' is a setup where "accept our emails" and "accept third-party emails" have opposite checkbox behavior, and it's the same behavior system in every example. My first thought was that it's probably a quirk in some shared service/template, or else regulatory weirdness. Hanlon's Razor and all that. But the claim that no one is intentionally annoying/scamming customers is a…

A very small number of people may intentionally sit down to design systems that purposefully trick users into doing things they don't want to do. However, to lump that in as he does with a load of other things that are basically not being done from choice is silly. Yes, they are not 100% good things, but they are not actively malicious either. Intent. Culpability..

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#184

Post by h_posner » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 4:29 PM UTC

schoen wrote: post #161

Bartweiss wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to work out whether "limited hours for an automated system" is a dark pattern, or sheer stupidity. The most horrifying variant I've seen recently was a government website that kept 9am-5pm hours. No human interaction or real-time events anywhere, but logins were locked after business hours. I'm guessing they didn't want to arrange special downtime periods for changes, and the only alternative they could th…

B&H Photo Video famously won't accept online orders on Shabbat (in the time zone of the business in New York). Not just not fulfil the orders then, but not allow users to place them, either. I don't know how they decided to use only the time zone of the company and not the time zone of the person placing the order, and indeed where they see the desecration(s) of the sabbath as occurring if they didn't enforce this po…

Ordering involves commerce. Commerce, you paying us for merchandise, is prohibited on the Sabbath. We use NYC time because NYC is our only location. We regret any inconvenience this temporary hiatus cayuses but it is unavoidable. -- Henry Posner / B&H Photo-Video

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#185

Post by FireBeyond » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

yaelwrites wrote: post #173

fullshark wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" British Airways lists flights that are the second-lowest price as the lowest," That sentence makes it sound like they deliberately always put the 2nd lowest price as the lowest every time. It was pretty misleading or poorly written.

See http://darkpatterns.org/british-airways-distract-from-cheape... .

I think that's still really stretching. "In fact, it's only the lowest price in that ticket class".

If I saw those boxes across the board, like in their example image, it doesn't take a second thought, it's "obvious" (to me anyway), that those are the "lowest, per class".

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#186

Post by schoen » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

h_posner wrote: post #184

schoen wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

B&H Photo Video famously won't accept online orders on Shabbat (in the time zone of the business in New York). Not just not fulfil the orders then, but not allow users to place them, either. I don't know how they decided to use only the time zone of the company and not the time zone of the person placing the order, and indeed where they see the desecration(s) of the sabbath as occurring if they didn't enforce this po…

Ordering involves commerce. Commerce, you paying us for merchandise, is prohibited on the Sabbath. We use NYC time because NYC is our only location. We regret any inconvenience this temporary hiatus cayuses but it is unavoidable. -- Henry Posner / B&H Photo-Video

I am super-impressed that someone from B&H found my comment, made an HN account, and replied to it directly.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#187

Post by yaelwrites » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 12:18 AM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #185

yaelwrites wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See http://darkpatterns.org/british-airways-distract-from-cheape... .

I think that's still really stretching. "In fact, it's only the lowest price in that ticket class". If I saw those boxes across the board, like in their example image, it doesn't take a second thought, it's "obvious" (to me anyway), that those are the "lowest, per class".

Yeah, that's why I described it as an examples of a bad design choice that may be accidental rather than a dark pattern. I do still think it's misleading, though.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#188

Post by scholia » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 10:54 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #182

scholia wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to pay attention ;-)

I'm referring to people relying on an automated unchecker, which is my point.

I don't see where you get the idea that people should rely on an automated unchecker. That doesn't make any sense.

However, if Unchecky unchecks everything then, even if you don't pay attention, you win vastly more than you lose.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#189

Post by Blaque » Sun, Jul 31, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

noxToken wrote: post #19

LeonM wrote: post #9

What about those 'free' WiFi access points that require you to login with Facebook for 'prevention of abuse', and then abuse your Facebook account by posting you were there.

Do you have an example of that? That can't be a thing.

Seen it the other day in Montréal, but just using the back button on my phone allowed me to use the wifi without signing up for anything.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#190

Post by chrismcb » Mon, Aug 01, 2016, 5:14 AM UTC

kordless wrote: post #69

HashHishBang wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? That is the entire point of this discussion. That just strikes me as a sign-up for more info. Granted I haven't signed up there so who knows if there are nefarious pre-checked boxes and massive ToS agreements, but signup for access to the site doesn't seem malicious.

I really shouldn't ask leading questions, because they are technically equivalent to blaming statements. What I meant was that "it does NOT matter" whether it's a UX bug or an intentional pattern. The effects can be the same. If a company doesn't have a lot of money to produce a good UX because they spent it all on trips up to Tahoe for a "workcation", and people rely on that software, it's the same damn thing no mat…

Yes it does matter. A bug or poor design can be fixed, while a dark pattern is intentional. Yes, the end result to the user is the same, but long term the it's a difference.