The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline • Hacker News Board

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#411

Post by masswerk » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 6:39 AM UTC

56k wrote: post #28

This article doesn't make any sense. The use of metaphors worked when people didn't know what a computer was, and the only way to make its UI make sense was to mimic real-world objects. Now, this is no longer necessary. It's been 40 years. While I agree that new macOS icons aren't great (see the Game Center icon), the old ones were silly. I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book only once when I was lit…

On the other hand, we call this thing a computer, while only the fewest use it to actually compute something. Or, we call that other thing a camera, while it's some years since this was actually a room, you could enter. Such historical traces may be found in visual language too, e.g., we commonly use arrows to indicate directions and relations, while they aren't found in real life anymore (at least, the fewest use to shoot with them nowadays).

These historically grown metaphors make lot of sense, where it comes to how we relate to objects. The word "camera" isn't only short and distinctive, it's also evoking a sense of the history of the medium, and it may provide some emotional bonding to the object which may hardly be achieved by a "multi-image" – while the latter may actually sound a bit fancier in a 1970s SF-movie. I think, there are some valid points made by the article, and, besides, on an empirical level, I'm losing time in the newer, uniformed MacOS GUIs, too. (Not to speak of Miller's magical number 7 or 3.7 bits working memory, which are still valid in the age of flat design. But this is an other story.)

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#412

Post by masswerk » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 7:18 AM UTC

cmiller1 wrote: post #194

xaduha wrote: post #67

Windows Themes were a step in the right direction, why can't we have that in OS X? Give me that Snow Leopard skin for El Capitan or whatever.

Even better was Kaleidoscope on Mac OS 7-9

Since it's now Mac OS again, I want the Appearance Manager back, too!

(Note: In Mac OS 8+ Appearance Manager was the built-in part and Kaleidoscope 2 rather provided a more accessible way of hacking the resources and switching themes.)

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#413

Post by WWLink » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 8:36 AM UTC

WayneBro wrote: post #260

eddieh wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree the old window zoom, as it was called, was the best. I know Windows user hate it, and so many of the recent changes seem to have been to placate Windows user complaints. I liked my Mac the way it was. We don't need to appeal to Windows users.

People who really like Windows (including me) generally seem to dislike the full-screen button in OS X though, so how is that placating anyone? Everywhere I look I find people saying that window management in Windows is miles ahead of OS X. Even from people who wouldn't want to use Windows. If Apple wanted to placate those people, they would make the green button maximize by default, get rid of that ghastly global me…

In Windows everything really wants to take up the whole screen. If you drag a window near an edge, it'll try and maximize! If you double click, it maxmizes! If you click the button, it maximizes! Shoot, in Windows 8 they wanted everything to start in full screen with that modern UI.

As much as I love overlapping and reasonably sized windows and having many windows strewn about my very large monitor, I'll see a post on Reddit about how websites aren't designed to look good when maximized on a 21:9 monitor, and then I'll face palm. It's weird.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#414

Post by vetinari » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 9:22 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #338

vetinari wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your colleague doesn't use completion? To me, using CLI is like having a conversation, with much richer vocabulary, than GUI. That's just pointing at things.

Would you rather have a conversation with your car "left 20 degrees, now right, slow down a little, whats the speed atm?" or just turn the wheel and press some pedals?

That's not a good example - the conversation with the car would be "take me to {someplace}", which couldn't necessarily be a specific name of the place, it could be "where I met with {someone} {sometime} ago". Think Star Trek conversation with the computer ;).

There would be no point in micromanaging the car using a limited vocabulary.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#415

Post by vetinari » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 9:36 AM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #314

vetinari wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your colleague doesn't use completion? To me, using CLI is like having a conversation, with much richer vocabulary, than GUI. That's just pointing at things.

Of course they do, but typing stuff is just physically slower for some operations. Typing git log, then scrolling through the pages of text in order to find the interesting change will always be slower than a right click -> log and then "pointing at things". I think your conversation metaphor is good, but in a GUI the answer can be richer and interactive. A CLI can only manipulate text, a GUI can manipulate text wher…

There are always advantages and disadvantages of both approaches. I always shudder when I recollect configuring IIS using GUI ;).

CLI does not need to manipulate text only necessarily, see the command line in AutoCAD for example.

But yes, GUI in many cases is a better way, I wouldn't want to have cli-only Photoshop-like app (or even cli-only CAD modeller). The point is to recognize effectivity of both approaches for a given problem, at the given abstraction level.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#416

Post by spronkey » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 10:33 AM UTC

philjohn wrote: post #100

0942v8653 wrote: post #36

Note: This is my personal opinion! I recently had to use a computer with OS X Mavericks on it (10.9 I think). I was struck by how beautiful the interface was. I'm having trouble finding a good screenshot illustrating this, but compare http://content.gcflearnfree.org/topics/243/2013_new_desktop.... http://download.softwsp.com/sites/12/2015/11/os-x-el-capitan... Everything just looks better on Mavericks. The gradients…

I find the UI in Mavericks overly fussy and cluttered. Horses for courses though, you like what you like.

Horses for courses indeed. Mavericks is the pinnacle of Aqua for me. Beautiful, great typography, great affordances, a little bit of character.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#417

Post by spronkey » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 10:54 AM UTC

zer0defex wrote: post #203

cauterized wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my biggest frustration with OS X these days. They're working so hard to add marginally useful consumer crap like native maps that the power user functionality that attracted me to the platform in the first place is suffering badly. The mail app in particular has gone from nearly-perfect (for my use case) to unusably broken in a dozen obvious ways.

Microsoft has clearly identified this weakness as well. It's no coincidence the bash prompt has suddenly become available in windows...

Microsoft have many of the same weaknesses though. The new Windows Modern UI apps or whatever they call it now are awful. Mail? Calendar? Wow. Even Outlook Express was better.

And the new Settings app? Dear holy deity..

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#418

Post by klausa » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 11:26 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #90

56k wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, Google Chrome's icon doesn't depict a webpage, but I know I can click on it and use it to browse the Web.

Yes (neither does Opera or Mosaic have anything to do with Web browsing), however: - Chrome is a brand, and people have been educated to expect that from it (same with Ps and Ai - "everybody" knows what's that) - Photos is an utility, it does not exist outside of Mac OS X. Like the fuel icon in a car gauge, it is supposed to be discoverable

It does. There's Photos on iPhones, on TVs and Watches.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#419

Post by puranjay » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 11:28 AM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #354

puranjay wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, hadn't thought of that. She actually has a Nexus and isn't really tied into the Apple ecosystem so this might actually be a good idea

https://www.neverware.com You could (both) try out ChromeOS on a Windows laptop before traipsing down to the shop to test keyboards. Needs an 8Gb USB stick that you can erase.

This is great. Thanks for sharing.

I'm downloading it right now and taking it out for a spin on my computer first. Never used ChromeOS before!

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#420

Post by cyphunk » Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

tldr; this article is arguing for skeuomorphism.

Actually I'm not sure this isn't a satire. It made me rotflmao. But also, it's good to see that there are people out there (perhaps many, perhaps most!?) that see the world of good design in complete opposite.