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Don't add your 2 cents

sivers.org

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Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#241

Post by jschwartzi »

vmarsy wrote: post #223
jimbokun wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you think my mentality is Dilbertesque, go ask your supervisor what kind of decisions they wouldn't let you make." Maybe this is a little too personal for me. Never been a manager, don't really want to be one. But I have been a developer for a long time, so I often have as much or more experience than my supervisor at this stage of my career. The anecdotes that stick in my memory, is when I knew the right decisio…

I agree with both late2part and you. I saw late2part situation happen a lot of times: A junior dev find a quick an elegant way to solve problem X. Senior dev comes and say: It's good but you should do it that way because it If the senior dev is bad / doesn't have time at the moment, he will skip explaining the "because" part, and the junior dev might be frustrated. With good communication a good faith from both parti…

If it's not important enough for you to explain the rationale, don't bother giving someone the feedback.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#242

Post by vanderZwan »

thesz wrote: post #227
vanderZwan wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are not presenting a quantitative basis for a change. That "work me out of a design" is as diminishing as direct request. First, you are still thinking in terms of a top-down decision where the boss has to choose between deciding what is best, or delegating that with no further input, whereas I'm talking about creating a collaborative dialogue which may or may not result in change at all. > Please, answer to me…

>First, you are still thinking in terms of a top-down decision where the boss has to choose between deciding what is best, or delegating that with no further input, whereas I'm talking about creating a collaborative dialogue which may or may not result in change at all. I think I can say exactly the same about your opinion. I think that it is not me (as a manager) who should approach a design from a designer point of…

> I think that it is not me (as a manager) who should approach a design from a designer point of view

> Because it is my job to measure and report for everyone to take actions (can be suggested by me, but that's all).

Before you measure you first have to know what to measure, and if you really believe that engaging with your subordinates will not help you with deciding that, I hope to goodness that I will never work under someone like you. Because if you think you can determine that all on your own, that means you still are the one bossing over your subordinates. It implies tunnel-vision you have and systematic top-down tyranny (even if unintentional).

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#243

Post by dilemma »

abalone wrote: post #239
vxNsr wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that sj only critiqued things that he genuinely felt needed to be changed. Though he was also demonstrably the worst manager one could have so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from him.

> sj only critiqued things that he genuinely felt needed to be changed Which included incredibly detailed nuances like pixel-level critiques of icons and UIs, which is literally what the author defines as "your 2 cents". > demonstrably the worst manager one could have so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from him Except how to build one of the most valuable companies in the world? Seems like a fair criterion for g…

Why did Steve Jobs think the iPhone shouldn't be able to copy and paste?

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#244

Post by thesz »

vanderZwan wrote: post #242
thesz wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, you are still thinking in terms of a top-down decision where the boss has to choose between deciding what is best, or delegating that with no further input, whereas I'm talking about creating a collaborative dialogue which may or may not result in change at all. I think I can say exactly the same about your opinion. I think that it is not me (as a manager) who should approach a design from a designer point of…

> I think that it is not me (as a manager) who should approach a design from a designer point of view > Because it is my job to measure and report for everyone to take actions (can be suggested by me, but that's all). Before you measure you first have to know what to measure, and if you really believe that engaging with your subordinates will not help you with deciding that, I hope to goodness that I will never work…

Actually, I should measure things external to "my subordinates". I don't know what example to present to you, let me try.

I am part of team building CAD system. What should I, as a manager, measure is an efficiency of a user of our system. E.g., time to complete a task of (un)trained user, delay distribution of a response time, something like that. These are external to the development effort, generally.

I emphasize that by diving into design (or, worse, development) questions I will not get a quality product. I have to measure things that no sane software developer will measure - that measurement is just not interesting as a process. I have to measure them and present to my colleagues as an external constraint to the system, for them to use that constraint to make system better.

As a leutenant, you cannot win a battle by asking questions about "why have you targeted that khata on a kholm?". You assess a situation (measure variables external to each member of the platoon) and... well, that depends then. Even if I order platoon to do something it is up to platoon members to develop their ways and coordinate them. This is the case of mission-oriented tactics, which is implicitly utilized by every good SW dev team.

If you still think I am bossing, have tunnel vision and enforce top-down tyranny, well, so be it.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#245

Post by st3v3r »

quadrangle wrote: post #237
st3v3r wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But once again, this isn't about constructive feedback. This is about nitpicky, subjective things. The article does not say to hold back constructive feedback. It says to stop nitpicking your employees to death.

The post doesn't say "don't micromanage", it says that if you provide your 2 cents when shown something and ASKED SPECIFICALLY "What do you think?" (!) that if you answer what you think, it will damage your employee's sense of personal ownership over their work, which is utter bullshit. You can give the author credit for all sorts of careful nuanced views while excusing all the lousiness in the actual words they wrot…

"The post doesn't say "don't micromanage""

That is exactly what it says.

"it says that if you provide your 2 cents when shown something and ASKED SPECIFICALLY "What do you think?" (!) that if you answer what you think, it will damage your employee's sense of personal ownership over their work, which is utter bullshit."

It says that if you give petty, subjective, not really constructive criticism, that you will damage your employee's sense of personal ownership of the work, which is true.

"You can give the author credit for all sorts of careful nuanced views while excusing all the lousiness in the actual words they wrote, but I'm not going to do that. If the author can't take the time to think more critically and carefully about how to express their advice, they shouldn't be publishing, even on their own little blog."

I'm sorry, but the article did do that. You just don't want to see it.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#246

Post by unabst »

unabst wrote: post #59

Huge Sivers fan! With that said, I'd take this advice way further. > The boss’s opinion is no better than anyone else’s. All opinions are no better. Does not matter who. Throw out opinions altogether. In America we are obsessed with "our right to our opinion" and somehow have confabulated this to equal our individuality, our exceptionalism, and our success. We're unique to begin with, exceptional is only a hard earne…

[footnote] John Oliver saying it even better: https://youtu.be/zNdkrtfZP8I

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#247

Post by darkerside »

jschwartzi wrote: post #240
darkerside wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the key is to effectively manage your team's morale such that they're not derailed by constructive feedback.

I think the point is that sometimes it's not constructive feedback. Sometimes you'd personally just prefer things to be slightly different. But that doesn't mean that the path your subordinate chose isn't just as good as your preference. In those cases, you should keep your feedback to yourself because it's not actually constructive, and in the worst case it actually undermines their confidence.

If you don't have good reasons for your feedback (beyond personal preference), then absolutely keep your opinions to yourself. But don't blindly rubber stamp work product in order to preserve feelings. There's a third way, which this article completely ignores.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#248

Post by noxToken »

beambot wrote: post #202
noxToken wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the employee-boss relationship is a factor as well. Generally speaking, superiors should be able to make constructive criticisms to their subordinates without it impacting morale in a negative manner. That makes criticism a two way street. Bosses must make sure that they're not all critic with no praise. No one wants to be critiqued all the time without kudos for the good portions and hard work. Tone, body la…

One-word redline => 10 minutes of billable hours. ::Shakes fist:: lawyers! ;-)

Because of the line of work, we were contracted with up front costs. We didn't have billable hours, but hot damn - those little corrections would have added up quickly.
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