Don't add your 2 cents • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#181

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

late2part wrote: post #167

jimbokun wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The challenge is that statistically, the more senior guy understands why changes are needed, while the more junior guy is less likely to understand the context, or probabilistic benefit of the offered change." No, no, no, a thousand times no! The person most involved in the problem will almost always better understand the context of the problem, because they are spending far more time on it. This is another importan…

Sometimes you're right. Do you think you're right all the time? Do you think the more senior guy should know when it is one situation (when the more senior guy knows) and when it is the other, where the more junior and more involved guy knows? You're making a black and white rule. The black and white rule I'm advocating is that the boss should know when it's black (intercede) and when it's white (let their good v. su…

"If you think my mentality is Dilbertesque, go ask your supervisor what kind of decisions they wouldn't let you make."

Maybe this is a little too personal for me.

Never been a manager, don't really want to be one. But I have been a developer for a long time, so I often have as much or more experience than my supervisor at this stage of my career.

The anecdotes that stick in my memory, is when I knew the right decision, explained the rationale for the right decision...and my boss made the wrong decision, without being able to explain why his decision was better. I distinctly remember one incident where, several months after going with my boss's decision, which turned into a bug generating maintenance nightmare, my boss ruefully smiling at me and saying "Yea, I think we should have done (jimbokun's original idea)."

Yea, thanks, now we're wasting who knows how many hours on the fallout of the original decision.

I appreciate those who are willing to take on the hard job of management, and OK with them potentially making more than I do. But good managers find and hire people who know how to do their job and let them do it. So if a manager has an inclination to change something, they should first assume they are wrong and their subordinate is right, ask the person doing the work to explain how they made their decision, ask for clarification if the manager still thinks a change should be made, and only then suggest the change if there is something clearly and obviously wrong with the reasoning behind the decision, making sure to explain the reason for the change.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#182

Post by Practicality » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #126

icelancer wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For example, you might ask "If you had to improve anything, what would you change?" It's an open-ended question that will encourage your team member to think. Yeah. They think you're too weak-willed to just outright state your opinion and instead passively-aggressively point out what you really mean.

This... I hate being slow rolled to idea or opinion.. If you have criticism about my work come out with it, I am not some delicate little snowflake, if there is better way I want to know.

One of the keys to good management is actually understanding that there are some people who want it delicate and some people who want it blunt.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#183

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:20 PM UTC

thenomad wrote: post #114

torrent-of-ions wrote: post #103

Ugh. This reeks of "safe space" nonsense. Part of working in a team is receiving comments and criticism from others. If you take these negatively and as attacks to you, rather than collective construction towards the final goal, then you have a problem and need to consider changing job. I find that when I design something I become accustomed to early design choices and then eventually become blind to them. I need som…

You may be missing the authority dynamic here. If your co-worker looks at a designed object and says "needs more blue, change the word "giant"", that's feedback which you can then incorporate, but can also reject if you think it doesn't help the project. If your direct boss says the same thing, and you don't have the understanding with them that you are totally free to ignore their feedback, you'll have somewhere bet…

[deleted]

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#184

Post by softawre » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:22 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #126

icelancer wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For example, you might ask "If you had to improve anything, what would you change?" It's an open-ended question that will encourage your team member to think. Yeah. They think you're too weak-willed to just outright state your opinion and instead passively-aggressively point out what you really mean.

This... I hate being slow rolled to idea or opinion.. If you have criticism about my work come out with it, I am not some delicate little snowflake, if there is better way I want to know.

The real LPT here is that every employee is different and a good boss treats them how they want to be treated.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#185

Post by erikb » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:28 PM UTC

haasn wrote: post #142

I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is. Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't…

Agreed, it depends on expertise. On the other hand, I think it's possible to read the article as "don't use power to overcome a lack of expertise". And in that regard the article is not really wrong. It's just not a fleshed out thought yet.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#186

Post by darkerside » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:32 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #148

haasn wrote: post #142

I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is. Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't…

I guess the key difference between my experience and this article, though, is that the article seems to be mostly focused in a non-technical boss commenting on benign/arbitrary opinions (like shades of color), rather than a technically skilled superior commenting on his area of expertise. The article is referring to things that are ostensibly subjective changes that don't make a tangible, measurable difference. The s…

Maybe the key is to effectively manage your team's morale such that they're not derailed by constructive feedback.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#187

Post by forgottenpass » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:33 PM UTC

dietrichepp wrote: post #13

baddox wrote: post #4

Is it not possible to make it clear that your 2 cents is just a suggestion? This just seems like bad communication, and regardless of whose fault that is, the boss might as well try to solve it.

It's a "suggestion" from a direct superior in a hierarchical power structure. A little bit of communication isn't going to change the context. So no, it is not something simple like "bad communication". I think one of the main problems here is that people in power often feel like they have to justify themselves by giving technical feedback, even when it's not appropriate.

It's a "suggestion" from a direct superior in a hierarchical power structure. A little bit of communication isn't going to change the context.

Why not? If I don't like the "suggestion," I - a professional ostensibly employed to provide my expertise - will do my job and use my expertise to push back on their suggestion while communicating that they're ultimately in charge and I'm willing to do something I disagree with.

Not everything from on high is an order. Having a relationship with a superior or an employee where you're both free to push back on each others ideas (and understand how hard the other side is pushing) is a critically important part of the relationship.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#188

Post by darkerside » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

This is a total straw man. There's something in between bikeshedding and blindly approving work you feel is less than perfect. What if the boss responded with, "Why did you choose this color of blue?" This indicates respect for an intentional choice, lets the employee provide a rationale and be heard, and still moves towards a better final product. There's a false dichotomy presented in the article, and it's crap.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#189

Post by codingdave » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:36 PM UTC

Your boss' opinion might not be better... but it often does have more authority.

In my case, I work directly for the president of the company. He owns the place, he founded it, he built it, it is his. Whether or not his opinion is better, it does hold complete authority, and it is his right to have his company run his way.

Now, if you are a low/mid-level manager, the advice from the article may be more applicable to your situation. But your own corporate structure and culture will have an impact on the validity of that advice.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#190

Post by erikb » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

quadrangle wrote: post #174

Oh how I wish I had a downvote ability on this post. The first thing wrong with this is the fact that the post is nothing more than the author's 2 cents. The author doesn't know what they hey they're talking about and is just pontificating. As someone who does a lot of creative work, I hate it when people just give useless positive encouragement and withhold actual constructive feedback, small or large. Only hypersen…

I have to agree with a lot of what you say, but just as the article I think you haven't completely thought through what you are writing.

For instance, let's add two points that in real life can't be circumvented: a) most places that pay you will be dysfunctional work places, and b) you don't always have a choice of work since you need to pay bills.

And what are your standards for downvoting? I downvote when I think a comment/link is hurtful for the discussion or people involved. And yes, while it is not a very well finished article from Derek, it leads to a healthy discussion and in itself is not a bad/hurtful opinion to have.