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Don't add your 2 cents

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Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#221

Post by st3v3r »

ctur wrote: post #8

What this article misses is that genuine feedback helps us grow, and being open to it is as important as being able to deliver it in a way that doesn't take something away from the recipient. Getting others' input and adapting to it (or learning when to accept but not heed it) is crucial for getting better at whatever endeavor one is engaged in. If you have a suitable level of trust and respect between you and the pe…

The article didn't miss that at all. The article wasn't about meaningful feedback. It was about petty, subjective feedback that doesn't really serve to make anything better, but to make the manager feel as if they did something.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#222

Post by st3v3r »

quadrangle wrote: post #174

Oh how I wish I had a downvote ability on this post. The first thing wrong with this is the fact that the post is nothing more than the author's 2 cents. The author doesn't know what they hey they're talking about and is just pontificating. As someone who does a lot of creative work, I hate it when people just give useless positive encouragement and withhold actual constructive feedback, small or large. Only hypersen…

But once again, this isn't about constructive feedback. This is about nitpicky, subjective things. The article does not say to hold back constructive feedback. It says to stop nitpicking your employees to death.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#223

Post by vmarsy »

jimbokun wrote: post #181
late2part wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes you're right. Do you think you're right all the time? Do you think the more senior guy should know when it is one situation (when the more senior guy knows) and when it is the other, where the more junior and more involved guy knows? You're making a black and white rule. The black and white rule I'm advocating is that the boss should know when it's black (intercede) and when it's white (let their good v. su…

"If you think my mentality is Dilbertesque, go ask your supervisor what kind of decisions they wouldn't let you make." Maybe this is a little too personal for me. Never been a manager, don't really want to be one. But I have been a developer for a long time, so I often have as much or more experience than my supervisor at this stage of my career. The anecdotes that stick in my memory, is when I knew the right decisio…

I agree with both late2part and you.

I saw late2part situation happen a lot of times: A junior dev find a quick an elegant way to solve problem X. Senior dev comes and say: It's good but you should do it that way because it

If the senior dev is bad / doesn't have time at the moment, he will skip explaining the "because" part, and the junior dev might be frustrated. With good communication a good faith from both parties, the junior would later understand.

The manager anecdote "my boss made the wrong decision, without being able to explain why his decision was better." would be a different situation, and in that case, that manager should definitely have kept his opinion for himself. At least he recognized his mistake later on.

So 2 stories: One where the junior dev is too "know-it-all", one where the supervisor didn't put enough trust in his subordinates.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#224

Post by brightball »

st3v3r wrote: post #215
brightball wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you. Part of this is just letting employees learn to adapt. At my first job out of college I was an assistant web dev to a talented senior guy in the marketing department. He learned that no matter what he did they were always going to have some small suggestion like the article points out, so he prepared for it. He got everything setup how he wanted it and then added something that looked blat…

But that skill only exists because managers do stuff like this. If they didn't, then that skill wouldn't be needed.

You can't control managers but you can control yourself.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#226

Post by vanderZwan »

jnbiche wrote: post #117
vanderZwan wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thinks specific questions would work well. To use the bad boss example: > I like it! Really good. Maybe just a darker shade of blue there, and change the word ‘giant’ to ‘huge’. Other than that, it’s great! Let's change this to: > I like it! Really good. Can you briefly work me through the design process behind it? I'm particularly interested in how you settled on the colours over there, and your ideas behind the w…

>> I like it! Really good. Maybe just a darker shade of blue there, and change the word ‘giant’ to ‘huge’. Other than that, it’s great! >Let's change this to: >> I like it! Really good. Can you briefly work me through the design process behind it? I'm particularly interested in how you settled on the colours over there, and your ideas behind the word 'giant'. Take note, all ye entrepreneurs! This advice is just as ap…

> That said, this has given me some ideas about how to respond in this types of situations. Perhaps with something like, "can I walk you through the reasons why I did/chose this?". Might be worth trying.

Right, there's no reason the designer/software engineer shouldn't take the initiative

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#227

Post by thesz »

vanderZwan wrote: post #196
thesz wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not presenting a quantitative basis for a change. That "work me out of a design" is as diminishing as direct request. Please, answer to me why are you concerned with such minutiae next to project completion? Is the Statement of Work you have prepared with designer not detailed enough? The only reason I, as a manager, would like to ask questions about "blue and huge" is to provide a way to me to experiment or…

> You are not presenting a quantitative basis for a change. That "work me out of a design" is as diminishing as direct request. First, you are still thinking in terms of a top-down decision where the boss has to choose between deciding what is best, or delegating that with no further input, whereas I'm talking about creating a collaborative dialogue which may or may not result in change at all. > Please, answer to me…

>First, you are still thinking in terms of a top-down decision where the boss has to choose between deciding what is best, or delegating that with no further input, whereas I'm talking about creating a collaborative dialogue which may or may not result in change at all.

I think I can say exactly the same about your opinion.

I think that it is not me (as a manager) who should approach a design from a designer point of view. Not that I cannot, I should not. Shall not, if you may. And I explained what I may to do - up front specify a way for someone to change various parts of a design to experiment or alter.

Because if I have doubts about design I shall not order designer to change it. Neither shall I ask about the design rationale. Both variants are equally bad to me if I put myself in the boots of the managed one.

I have to measure through experimentation and then present my findings for designer to decide whether he is right in his decision. Because it is my job to measure and report for everyone to take actions (can be suggested by me, but that's all). "Everyone" here includes my management and employees I manage.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#229

Post by mikeryan »

jimbokun wrote: post #166
late2part wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maxim I was taught was "If it's a question of good v. better; let the employee's decision stand; if it's a question of right v. wrong, intercede and direct, nudge if possible." When you get input you appreciate, you intrinsically appreciate it. The challenge is that statistically, the more senior guy understands why changes are needed, while the more junior guy is less likely to understand the context, or probabi…

"The challenge is that statistically, the more senior guy understands why changes are needed, while the more junior guy is less likely to understand the context, or probabilistic benefit of the offered change." No, no, no, a thousand times no! The person most involved in the problem will almost always better understand the context of the problem, because they are spending far more time on it. This is another importan…

I think the two of you are displaying my issue with the whole post which is that feedback is highly situational. Trying to distill this subject down to "Don't give your two cents" or "Only give your two cents when you're right" is pretty much impossible. There's so much context missing here.

There's a much longer post to be written on the ways to provide feedback and create a constructive conversation around solutions and seniority is almost never the reason someone is right but experience most often is.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#230

Post by nkrisc »

exodust wrote: post #173
nkrisc wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine most people are able to tell the difference between a necessary improvement or criticism versus something that is really just opinion. Boss sees a typo or brand color is wrong? Yeah, they say something. Boss just thinks their idea is slightly better on a hunch? Don't say something. It's good advice.

At least hear the 2 cents out and have a discussion where common sense and honesty decide the outcome. If the boss has any history of good ideas, then only a fool would not want to hear any hunches from the boss or bosses. The idea that "ownership" can be lost by 2 cent changes is absurd. What happened to wanting team input anyway? Weird piece. It's likely that already the project has a combination of elements coming…

I think you might be misinterpreting the advice in this short article. This is advice for managers for their interactions with subordinates, not for subordinates in their interactions with superiors. The advice states that their very position of power may give undue weight to their casual opinions or observations.

I think it's clear that this isn't suggesting withholding of all feedback when appropriate. It's saying that a casual, "I like blue" when the design being presented is purple isn't really helpful. If the boss has data that shows that actually blue increases conversion by 5% then it is not just this "two cents" that the article is talking about, it's an entirely different conversation that doesn't fall under the scope of this article.

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