Don't add your 2 cents • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#101

Post by reitanqild » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:25 AM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #96

JacobAldridge wrote: post #15

I think it's good to note, as Derek does, the distinction between "2 cents' worth" and larger changes that do require senior input - otherwise you're just being the manager that the team create ducks for [1]. This is where coaching skills as a manager can prove useful. If you feel there are some minor changes that could be an improvement, but don't want to impose your will/opinion, coaching ('ask') can be a better re…

>For example, you might ask "If you had to improve anything, what would you change?" It's an open-ended question that will encourage your team member to think. Yeah. They think you're too weak-willed to just outright state your opinion and instead passively-aggressively point out what you really mean.

I think some people would enjoy life more if they didn't think passive-agressive all tbe time.

Passive-agressiveness exists but reading everything into that context just makes for poor workplace performance IMO.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#102

Post by tobtoh » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:26 AM UTC

As a manager, I tend to frame my feedback/opinions as 'Have you considered ?' or 'Can you explain your thinking behind this ?'

Doing it this way, I get an understanding of their rationale and if I still think my idea is good, I can debate the worthiness of it against my employees reasoning. I feel this approach fosters a 'best idea wins' rather than a 'manager opinion trumps all'.

I agree with Derek's implied point that 'manager opinion trumps all is bad', but think it's a discredit to his staff if he doesn't challenge their ideas if he thinks he has something more worthwhile.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#103

Post by torrent-of-ions » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:28 AM UTC

Ugh. This reeks of "safe space" nonsense.

Part of working in a team is receiving comments and criticism from others. If you take these negatively and as attacks to you, rather than collective construction towards the final goal, then you have a problem and need to consider changing job.

I find that when I design something I become accustomed to early design choices and then eventually become blind to them. I need someone to come along with a fresh pair of eyes, see the whole thing and nitpick it. It's absurd to suggest that it's either perfect or needs to scrapped entirely.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#104

Post by ojosilva » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:29 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #97

ojosilva wrote: post #57

I find the advice highly condescending. > Because of that small change, that person no longer feels full ownership of their project. What kind of person is that who 1) thinks the ownership is 100% theirs when working in a team? 2) can't handle a little nitpicking? 3) feels it's less their work just because of a little change? 4) can't defend their work and resist those 2c? This is advice for managing 2 year olds. As…

In every team I've observed, there has been a steady stream of comments from staff about how one manager or other keeps asking for changes they see as pointless or negative, often accompanied by further complaints about how the manager in question never thinks their work is good enough. I've seen this be the primary reason for high performing team members quitting . I think you underestimate substantially how much ne…

> Constantly giving people feedback that says "your work wasn't good enough for me as is"

That's what I mean by giving reasonable feedback. Constantly being a dick is definitely counterproductive.

> resentment and feelings of not being appreciated

That is a symptom of a broken framework for managing a team, not a result of giving natural, reasonable feedback to the output of a person.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#105

Post by torrent-of-ions » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:34 AM UTC

tobtoh wrote: post #102

As a manager, I tend to frame my feedback/opinions as 'Have you considered ?' or 'Can you explain your thinking behind this ?' Doing it this way, I get an understanding of their rationale and if I still think my idea is good, I can debate the worthiness of it against my employees reasoning. I feel this approach fosters a 'best idea wins' rather than a 'manager opinion trumps all'. I agree with Derek's implied point t…

This post is much better than the article. The manner in which you deliver criticism is very important. When criticising somebody on their method I find it is much nicer to say "I like to do it like this..." They will then be encouraged to try your method and they might like it. You are not attacking their method.

I find it unfortunate that most people take criticism as an attack, but they do and choice of language and delivery can soften the blow and bypass their defences.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#106

Post by luke_s » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:43 AM UTC

torrent-of-ions wrote: post #103

Ugh. This reeks of "safe space" nonsense. Part of working in a team is receiving comments and criticism from others. If you take these negatively and as attacks to you, rather than collective construction towards the final goal, then you have a problem and need to consider changing job. I find that when I design something I become accustomed to early design choices and then eventually become blind to them. I need som…

Well, I was going to downvote, but figured it's better to comment.

> Ugh. This reeks of "safe space" nonsense.

What? I have very little idea what you are talking about, so I looked it up on wikipedia: "In educational institutions, safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space originally were terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate anti-LGBT violence, harassment or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place for all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students."

Which frankly sounds like a good idea, but doesn't seem like it has much to do with this blog post about managing members of your team.

> Part of working in a team is receiving comments and criticism from others. If you take these negatively and as attacks to you, rather than collective construction towards the final goal, then you have a problem and need to consider changing job.

Yes, except the point of the blog post is that managers should be aware that comments and criticism they would have been happy to offer as co-workers suddenly start to look a lot more like commands when they are coming from a boss. It's a good idea for new managers to be aware of this changed dynamic.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#107

Post by ZoFreX » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:50 AM UTC

torrent-of-ions wrote: post #105

tobtoh wrote: post #102

As a manager, I tend to frame my feedback/opinions as 'Have you considered ?' or 'Can you explain your thinking behind this ?' Doing it this way, I get an understanding of their rationale and if I still think my idea is good, I can debate the worthiness of it against my employees reasoning. I feel this approach fosters a 'best idea wins' rather than a 'manager opinion trumps all'. I agree with Derek's implied point t…

This post is much better than the article. The manner in which you deliver criticism is very important. When criticising somebody on their method I find it is much nicer to say "I like to do it like this..." They will then be encouraged to try your method and they might like it. You are not attacking their method. I find it unfortunate that most people take criticism as an attack, but they do and choice of language a…

> "I like to do it like this..." They will then be encouraged to try your method and they might like it

The danger here is that this will often be interpreted as "my boss wants me to do it like this", and they will do it not because the idea stands on its own merits, but because it was the boss's idea.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#108

Post by ZoFreX » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:54 AM UTC

torrent-of-ions wrote: post #103

Ugh. This reeks of "safe space" nonsense. Part of working in a team is receiving comments and criticism from others. If you take these negatively and as attacks to you, rather than collective construction towards the final goal, then you have a problem and need to consider changing job. I find that when I design something I become accustomed to early design choices and then eventually become blind to them. I need som…

The article is not saying that teams should avoid comments and criticism, nor is it saying that there is no middle ground between perfection and needing scrapping.

The article is pointing out that it is _particularly dangerous_ to give criticism if you are the boss, because whereas peer feedback will be weighed on its own merits, even casual feedback from a boss will frequently be interpreted as a command.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#109

Post by fs111 » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:55 AM UTC

ojosilva wrote: post #57

I find the advice highly condescending. > Because of that small change, that person no longer feels full ownership of their project. What kind of person is that who 1) thinks the ownership is 100% theirs when working in a team? 2) can't handle a little nitpicking? 3) feels it's less their work just because of a little change? 4) can't defend their work and resist those 2c? This is advice for managing 2 year olds. As…

> This is advice for managing 2 year olds.

Welcome to Silicon Valley!

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#110

Post by ZoFreX » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:56 AM UTC

jagermo wrote: post #98

So if I have an honest opinion about something my coworker or employee asks me, I should not tell him, so that I won't hurt his feelings? Is this kindergarten or grown-up life? Especially in creative areas it pays to let other people look at your stuff and get feedback. It is simply too easy to just get stuck on a path.

The article draws an explicit line between giving feedback as a coworker and as a manager. If you didn't get that, rather than reproducing the arguments here I humbly suggest you re-read it.