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Reddit is still in turmoil

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Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#501

Post by thekevan »

wutbrodo wrote: post #105
thekevan wrote: post #53

My use of reddit is way own. I'm tired of going to the front page and seeing so many submissions about things I don't care about like multiple video games, dumb inside jokes like r/circlejerk or all those repetitive links about Trump or Sanders. I know I can buy gold and customize the front page, but I am a little hesitant to pay money to make the front page not suck. I have ads turned on in my adblocker so they do g…

> My use of reddit is way own. I'm tired of going to the front page and seeing so many submissions about things I don't care about Why on Earth would you go to the Reddit frontpage? I stopped doing that like four years ago. Why not just create a Reddit account and avoid seeing the default subs on your frontpage? Reddit Gold has just about nothing to do with that.

>Why not just create a Reddit account and avoid seeing the default subs on your frontpage?

I do have a reddit account, I have had several over the past 10 years. I look at my subscribed front page as well. However plenty of times there is a subreddit I didn't know about suddenly trending. If I just look at the subs I'm subscribed to, I'm kind of limiting myself to my current interests, I won't learn about new things in new subs.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#502

Post by mindslight »

maratd wrote: post #492
mindslight wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of that list has nothing to do with the web (eg sendmail). And many of the projects that do also fail the requirements - for instance most users of a blog platform are readers , who still aren't in control of said software. We're obviously not disagreeing about the utility of local software, just that of "web apps". I assert that the platform itself is inherently biased towards making non-Free software.…

> The majority of that list has nothing to do with the web There are 188 PHP web applications in that list. 60 NodeJS web applications. 86 Python web applications. 25 Ruby web applications. I can go on. You're just being silly by pretending that this segment doesn't exist. > I assert that the platform itself is inherently biased towards making non-Free software. As opposed to native applications? I recall those being…

As I keep saying, yes it is possible to create something similar to a webapp that is Free software. [0]

But, let's take a look at the actual technologies behind the "web":

1. A naming system/transport protocol

2. A document markup language

3. A virtual machine for sandboxed code.

(2) is user-friendly (PoLP). But creating a Free app implies ignoring the defining "web" features of (1) and (3)!

If a single user is the only one accessing a given name, then that naming system has basically been made irrelevant. (If multiple users are accessing a given name, then per HTTP only one is in control of that name, and thus we deviate from free software).

If a user controls updates to the code and (in theory) audits it, then the primary purpose of the sandbox (executing random third-party specified code) is gone. The battle-hardened sandbox is nice for security, but the functionality is otherwise indistinguishable from any other language.

Why should such an app be called a "webapp" if it does not utilize most web features?

> based on your previous statements you're assuming a multi-user registration model with a centralized database you find on every commercial site which is a pre-requisite to monetization

I am not assuming this - I am noticing that a large majority of released projects are. Either due to lack of developer thought about repudiating "web" assumptions, or deliberate corporate "free-washing".

Platform defaults end up defining the culture of a platform. A good question to ask yourself - if you were designing a Free calculator app and wanted to show a friend, would you send them the files you're editing and they'd set it up on their own httpd to try it out, or would you end up sending them a URL to your server and thereby undermine their freedom?

[0] Although as I've said, many of those PHP etc apps are not actually Free - for instance the blog platforms.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#503

Post by paulryanrogers »

mindslight wrote: post #451
maratd wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Webapps are user-hostile What? What if I wrote it for my own use? What if it's among the thousands of web apps meant to be installed on a server you control? There's nothing inherent about the technology that requires third party control.

"Webapp" generally implies something administered by a third party. The extra overhead of (dedicated server, network setup, redundancy, each user requiring connectivity) only pays off when it's amortized over many users who do not have to set things up. Sure, some of these release their code as "open source" and you can setup your own copy. But I've never heard of one where the majority of users actually do so [0]. T…

OwnCloud/NextCloud

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#504

Post by technion »

jfoutz wrote: post #8

I didn't realize drinking on the job was a thing. I've had the odd company party with beer in the late afternoon, but that's perhaps twice a year. I'm not a teetotaler by any stretch of the imagination, but drinking at work seems counterproductive.

My first job, many years ago now, was at a place where the job of the junior (me) included going to the bottlo up the street and bringing back drinks, which often started at 9am.

Everyone from the CEO down was totally sloshed by afternoon, every day. I would absolutely hate to work in that environment, but it's definitely "a thing".

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#505

Post by maratd »

mindslight wrote: post #502
maratd wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The majority of that list has nothing to do with the web There are 188 PHP web applications in that list. 60 NodeJS web applications. 86 Python web applications. 25 Ruby web applications. I can go on. You're just being silly by pretending that this segment doesn't exist. > I assert that the platform itself is inherently biased towards making non-Free software. As opposed to native applications? I recall those being…

As I keep saying, yes it is possible to create something similar to a webapp that is Free software . [0] But, let's take a look at the actual technologies behind the "web": 1. A naming system/transport protocol 2. A document markup language 3. A virtual machine for sandboxed code. (2) is user-friendly (PoLP). But creating a Free app implies ignoring the defining "web" features of (1) and (3)! If a single user is the…

> If a single user is the only one accessing a given name, then that naming system has basically been made irrelevant.

No. It's not irrelevant at all. It's how you "execute" that specific software. It serves the same purpose as a filename for a binary on a filesystem.

> If a user controls updates to the code and (in theory) audits it, then the primary purpose of the sandbox (executing random third-party specified code) is gone.

No. An audit is never perfect and that even assumes you perform one. While I frequently modify the software I utilize, I almost never audit the entire codebase, so a sandbox is quite useful.

> if you were designing a Free calculator app and wanted to show a friend, would you send them the files you're editing and they'd set it up on their own httpd to try it out, or would you end up sending them a URL to your server and thereby undermine their freedom?

I did just that. I sent them a URL. Here's the rub, it's a purely front-end only web app. No backend. That means their browser downloads the entire codebase instantly. The codebase is easily accessed, saved, and modified by them, if they want to.

The calculator was possible over a decade ago. With some of the stuff hitting JavaScript within the last few years, you can literally build anything you want in that fashion. Games, communication apps, etc.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#506

Post by mindslight »

maratd wrote: post #505
mindslight wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I keep saying, yes it is possible to create something similar to a webapp that is Free software . [0] But, let's take a look at the actual technologies behind the "web": 1. A naming system/transport protocol 2. A document markup language 3. A virtual machine for sandboxed code. (2) is user-friendly (PoLP). But creating a Free app implies ignoring the defining "web" features of (1) and (3)! If a single user is the…

> If a single user is the only one accessing a given name, then that naming system has basically been made irrelevant. No. It's not irrelevant at all. It's how you "execute" that specific software. It serves the same purpose as a filename for a binary on a filesystem. > If a user controls updates to the code and (in theory) audits it, then the primary purpose of the sandbox (executing random third-party specified cod…

> The codebase is easily accessed, saved, and modified by them, if they want to.

This is harder than it already being local, or apt-get install turning into apt-get source. Likely, if they find your app interesting they will keep using it directly from your URL and end up at your mercy.

And that's the crux of my point - the assumptions of the platform are at odds with software freedom. Not in a way that is incompatible - as this is computing, we are always free to ignore the properties an abstraction provides and build a completely new one over it.

Your argument is analogous to a C programmer insisting that if one just follows the rules, C is just as expressive and safe as a higher level language. People are not perfectly rigorous, and the properties of the basic abstractions matter.

"Web" implies executing code off of a third-party server. Yes, there is a pathological case of having your own server (and that may become more popular one day), but that does not change the term's current wider definition and the general culture around it.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#507

Post by dimino »

qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #494
dimino wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please follow HN rules when commenting.

I fail to see where you find issue with my comment in reference to the rules. If you thought I was making a contentless post, sure, I can fix that: plenty of people who weren't spammers have been shadowbanned. Just look it up.

Anyone who is currently shadowbanned and not as a result of bot-spamming can request a removal of the shadowban from the admins and they will happily comply.

The fact that people have been shadowbanned is not evidence that it was intentional.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#508

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

dimino wrote: post #507
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see where you find issue with my comment in reference to the rules. If you thought I was making a contentless post, sure, I can fix that: plenty of people who weren't spammers have been shadowbanned. Just look it up.

Anyone who is currently shadowbanned and not as a result of bot-spamming can request a removal of the shadowban from the admins and they will happily comply. The fact that people have been shadowbanned is not evidence that it was intentional.

Okay, so you think I'm wrong. That's fine. But I didn't violate HN rules. I read then twice, just to check.

And while I freely admit that I might be wrong, in this case, it doesn't actually matter. Even if shadowbans are only given to spammers, that's not what the reddit community thinks is happening, leading to the current social climate on reddit.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#509

Post by dimino »

qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #508
dimino wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who is currently shadowbanned and not as a result of bot-spamming can request a removal of the shadowban from the admins and they will happily comply. The fact that people have been shadowbanned is not evidence that it was intentional.

Okay, so you think I'm wrong. That's fine. But I didn't violate HN rules. I read then twice, just to check. And while I freely admit that I might be wrong, in this case, it doesn't actually matter. Even if shadowbans are only given to spammers, that's not what the reddit community thinks is happening, leading to the current social climate on reddit.

> that's not what the reddit community thinks is happening, leading to the current social climate on reddit.

I... don't care? I guess you're making some kind of assumption that this conversation needs to know what you think the climate of Reddit's community is. I'd ask "Why" but, I care even less about that.

Shadow-banning is for spammers, full stop. I don't care if you think other people think otherwise.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#510

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

dimino wrote: post #509
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so you think I'm wrong. That's fine. But I didn't violate HN rules. I read then twice, just to check. And while I freely admit that I might be wrong, in this case, it doesn't actually matter. Even if shadowbans are only given to spammers, that's not what the reddit community thinks is happening, leading to the current social climate on reddit.

> that's not what the reddit community thinks is happening, leading to the current social climate on reddit. I... don't care? I guess you're making some kind of assumption that this conversation needs to know what you think the climate of Reddit's community is. I'd ask "Why" but, I care even less about that . Shadow-banning is for spammers, full stop. I don't care if you think other people think otherwise.

>I guess you're making some kind of assumption that this conversation needs to know what you think the climate of Reddit's community is. I'd ask "Why" but, I care even less about that.

Why wouldn't I make that assumption? Go read the OP. One of the main points is that shadowbanning, or the belief in it, creates more distrust between reddit's admins and users.

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