The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter • Hacker News Board

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#121

Post by douche » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 6:33 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #109

winter_blue wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do. There are plenty of non-Hispanic white congressmen who take the same stance as Luis Gutierrez. The truth is that the people behind most of this anti-immigrant rhetoric can't see the humanity of someone who is not of their same skin color. When they call a human being "an illegal" -- it's dehumanizing, and it plainly reveals they don't see their common shared humanity. I've noticed it in the language they u…

> When they call a human being "an illegal" -- it's dehumanizing … No, it's an accurate, dry, legal characterisation of someone present in the country illegally, much like referring to someone who has murdered someone else as 'a murderer,' or to someone who has shoplifted as 'a shoplifter.' I'm actually philosophically inclined towards completely open borders (although I have some deep concerns about what that does t…

> Words mean things, and that's what those words mean

I want to put this on the biggest billboard I can find, or put it in Nazca lines across the surface of the moon, so maybe we'll remember. Language lawyering is profoundly useless, and I've no patience with it.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#122

Post by vkou » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #116

winter_blue wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, most people don't realize that the U.S. actually has a super low 0.38% immigrate rate. It's truly extreme xenophobia and racism that these liars who falsely claim "mass immigration" can't tolerate the tiny 0.38% that comes to the U.S. every year. They see a few immigrants in their neighborhoods, and their blood immediately starts to boil, and they get filled up with loathing and hatred. They are total hypocrites…

1 in 8 residents being immigrants is not super low. The rate of immigrants per year is irrelevant, as it adds up a lot over time. I guarantee that people would complain if the immigrants were European. Because they did in the past! In the past a huge number of immigrants were from Ireland and other countries, and there was lots of hatred and anti immigration movements. It has literally nothing to do with race. People…

It had everything to do with race. The thing is, Irish were not considered white!

They were sub-human, ape-like, violent alcoholics. Many English viewed them as such, and brought that viewpoint with them to the US.

... Racism doesn't have to make sense.

And 1 in 8 is super-low for a settler nation. It's also only slightly higher then the average European state.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#123

Post by Houshalter » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 6:45 PM UTC

xorcist wrote: post #118

Houshalter wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested in seeing what the arguments in the actual book are. I recall reading something about this before, that pointed to evidence that more diverse groups are less happy and have more conflict. And that people in general like being part of a group of similar people and having a group identity, humans being tribal creatures. Anyway I'm not sure he's claiming western culture is homogenous. But it does seem…

I'm interested in what that would be. From a northern European perspective, we have strong cultural ties to the US (given that we were part of the whole colonization thing). Yet there are politicians there that question women's rights to abortions quite seriously, argue from the basis of religious rather than scientific conviction, oppose music and art and vaccinations and climate science on the same grounds that I f…

Those are political values not cultural ones. And surely conservatives exist in Europe to? Perhaps there are fewer of them and they don't have the political power they do here, but conservatives exist in every country.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#124

Post by somebehemoth » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 6:46 PM UTC

choko wrote: post #110

ohnomrbill wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclaimer: I will vote for some candidate this election, but I would write in a name before voting for Trump.) I see this conflation in almost all the election news I hear - people assume that Trump supporters are against any immigration. In fact, the white, blue collar workers making Trump's base are okay with most immigrants. They (quite understandably) dislike illegal South American immigrants, who compete with…

(disclaimer: also not a Trump supporter) I don't think Trump's opponents assume that his supporters are against all immigration at all. I think his opponents deliberately misinterpret Trumps' message to paint his supporters as ignorant racists. That's not to say that there aren't Trump supporters who are actually racist, but I see little actual evidence that it's the norm. Throwing the racist card has been a pretty e…

"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on..."

How does one misinterpret this message to be racist when it is so blatantly racist in and of itself?

"Throwing the racist card has been a pretty effective tactic for the left over the past 8 years..."

With all of the dark skinned people getting killed by police lately it seems more likely that the US has a huge problem with racism. In that context the notion of a "racist card" makes no sense at all in a logical argument.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#125

Post by Houshalter » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 6:51 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #122

Houshalter wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 in 8 residents being immigrants is not super low. The rate of immigrants per year is irrelevant, as it adds up a lot over time. I guarantee that people would complain if the immigrants were European. Because they did in the past! In the past a huge number of immigrants were from Ireland and other countries, and there was lots of hatred and anti immigration movements. It has literally nothing to do with race. People…

It had everything to do with race. The thing is, Irish were not considered white! They were sub-human, ape-like, violent alcoholics. Many English viewed them as such, and brought that viewpoint with them to the US. ... Racism doesn't have to make sense. And 1 in 8 is super-low for a settler nation. It's also only slightly higher then the average European state.

Perhaps, but my point is that residents of a country will always oppose immigrant groups, regardless of their origin. It's not necessarily racism. I know people who oppose immigrants. They don't believe hispanics are an inferior race or anything like that. They are mainly concerned about American jobs being taken by the immigrants.

You can't use "racism" as a fully general insult against anyone that disagrees with you.

Europe may or may not have higher rates of immigration. It's irrelevant to US policy. And it certainly seems like they are starting to have their own problems with immigrants the last few years.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#126

Post by winter_blue » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 7:12 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #121

zeveb wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When they call a human being "an illegal" -- it's dehumanizing … No, it's an accurate, dry, legal characterisation of someone present in the country illegally, much like referring to someone who has murdered someone else as 'a murderer,' or to someone who has shoplifted as 'a shoplifter.' I'm actually philosophically inclined towards completely open borders (although I have some deep concerns about what that does t…

> Words mean things, and that's what those words mean I want to put this on the biggest billboard I can find, or put it in Nazca lines across the surface of the moon, so maybe we'll remember. Language lawyering is profoundly useless, and I've no patience with it.

I completely and utterly disagree with you; language and word choice matters a lot: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/06/wol...

There is a lot of implied sub-communication that comes with word choice in human languages. Only an idiot or a robot would take everything by its literal meaning.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#127

Post by metheus » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 7:16 PM UTC

boona wrote: post #100

vasilipupkin wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for example, if it's indeed true that Peter Thiel is skeptical of women's suffrage, then I think it is reasonable to conclude that he is probably at least to some extent an idiot and we should view his actions at least partially through that prism

I would love to hear WHY he's skeptical. I'm sure he's heard all the traditional arguments like we have, which means he has additional information that I don't. Don't you think it's more intellectually honest to question and hear what others have to say rather than just paint them as idiots because they don't believe what you believe.

Shall we extend the same curtesy to those who oppose other forms of universal suffrage?

> I'm sure he's heard all the traditional arguments like we have, which means he has additional information that I don't.

It means nothing of the kind. Occam's razor suggests, rather, that he reasons differently than you (or at least me).

> Don't you think it's more intellectually honest to question and hear what others have to say

In theory, if we had infinite "compute time" in our lives to hear and evaluate all the arguments of those advocating regressive politics, then yes, sure. But we don't. Instead, we rely on a cluster of markers to heuristically determine if it is likely that someone has anything to say that doesn't just reduce trivially to the same BS you've already heard.

In this case, we have an arrogant economic royalist lamenting the consequences of women having a political voice. It is quite obvious that he has a ton of raw intellectual horsepower in that brain, but equally clear that he has no novel, reasonable justification for disenfranchising women.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#128

Post by oldmanjay » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 7:37 PM UTC

somebehemoth wrote: post #124

choko wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(disclaimer: also not a Trump supporter) I don't think Trump's opponents assume that his supporters are against all immigration at all. I think his opponents deliberately misinterpret Trumps' message to paint his supporters as ignorant racists. That's not to say that there aren't Trump supporters who are actually racist, but I see little actual evidence that it's the norm. Throwing the racist card has been a pretty e…

"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on..." How does one misinterpret this message to be racist when it is so blatantly racist in and of itself? "Throwing the racist card has been a pretty effective tactic for the left over the past 8 years..." With all of the dark skinned people getting kil…

Since there isn't even a Muslim race, all these claims of racism just seem to me like desperate heavings from people who hate dictionaries and love manipulating emotions.

Also, your last sentence effectively means "since racism is a thing, all accusations of racism are valid" which is almost offensively wrong.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#129

Post by douche » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 7:40 PM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #126

douche wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Words mean things, and that's what those words mean I want to put this on the biggest billboard I can find, or put it in Nazca lines across the surface of the moon, so maybe we'll remember. Language lawyering is profoundly useless, and I've no patience with it.

I completely and utterly disagree with you; language and word choice matters a lot: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/06/wol... There is a lot of implied sub-communication that comes with word choice in human languages. Only an idiot or a robot would take everything by its literal meaning.

We'll agree to disagree. The linked article is a pretty load of horse-hockey, in my opinion.

If everyone is free to redefine words to mean whatever they damn well please, then it is impossible to have clear, effective discussions, because you get wound up wrangling about definitions - as we do habitually here, talking past each other.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#130

Post by douche » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 7:51 PM UTC

oldmanjay wrote: post #128

somebehemoth wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on..." How does one misinterpret this message to be racist when it is so blatantly racist in and of itself? "Throwing the racist card has been a pretty effective tactic for the left over the past 8 years..." With all of the dark skinned people getting kil…

Since there isn't even a Muslim race, all these claims of racism just seem to me like desperate heavings from people who hate dictionaries and love manipulating emotions. Also, your last sentence effectively means "since racism is a thing, all accusations of racism are valid" which is almost offensively wrong.

The racist label is interesting, I don't understand why that's the one that people reflexively reach for, especially when you could more accurately say that he is a bigot.

Bigot is more fun to say, plus it doesn't turn into an -ism when used in the adjective form. Because we have enough -isms.