The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter • Hacker News Board

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#101

Post by vkou » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

randothrowaway wrote: post #82

vkou wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right - a descendant of French immigrants has quite the leg to stand on. After all, his great-grandparents legally entered the country... At the time when undesirables, like Chinese, Indians, and the Polish were barred from entry. But at least the Frenchmen came legally! Sure, entry was granted under an extremely racist immigration law, but the legality is what gives him the moral high ground to stand on.

Under your rational then you should be pro building a wall as currently illegal immigration is a default "racist" policy that encourages those from central America while discriminating against Indians and Chinese. Build the wall and regulate immigration so more Indians and Chinese come relative to their world population.

Current immigration policy is racist, yes. It's dehumanizing to the people here illegally, and it's not fair by any means. My point is that legality is a fig leaf. When your definition for "legally" is "My ancestors got on a boat, and were white," it holds no weight.

"Hurr, durr, build a wall to keep them out", and "Keep America Christian" does nothing to resolve it. If you actually give a shit about either, then backing Trump (Or the other big names from the 2016 Republican line) is backing the wrong horse.

Even more ironically, two of the other candidates (Ted Cruz, and Marco Rubio) are the descendants of Cuban refugees... And any Cuban entering the US can immediately apply for permanent residency. No questions asked.

Strangely, they oppose the same privilege to people fleeing repression/drug cartels/terrible poverty in the rest of Central America.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#102

Post by Houshalter » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

wmil wrote: post #73

bko wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The billionaire tech investor has been a staunch opponent of immigration. Back in 2008, Gawker found that Thiel had donated $1 million to NumbersUSA, an anti-immigration group that has consistently been labelled racist and a firm fan of active population control. ... > He then invested in the SeaSteading Institute which wanted to turn Thiel’s dream into a reality. The reason? He felt the government wasn’t doing eno…

"In February 2009, NumbersUSA was called a nativist organization by the Southern Poverty Law Center's report 'The Nativist Lobby', though the SPLC also stated that there is no evidence of racism on behalf of Roy Beck or his organization."[1] There are plenty of people in the press who consider all discussion of immigration reduction or control racist. That doesn't make it so. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers…

I've noticed a phenomenon for political words to lose meaning over time, and become fully general insults. The right uses "socialist" excessively for example. The left uses words like "racist" in a similar way. Most people called socialist would say they don't support socialism or socialist policies. Most people called racist would say they don't think their race is superior or that we should discriminate based on race.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#103

Post by Houshalter » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #84

bruceb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't you are just changing the mix of who is coming. One could argue that decrease low skilled immigration and upping higher skilled immigration would boost those at the bottom. Raising wages at the bottom while reducing the price of some more complex services.

I guess it's under the whole idea the immigration drives down wages. It's likely true that it does drive down wages for certain individuals but the net impact is at worse break even. Wages are an expense after-all, and if you cut the expense and prices go down, everyone benefits by at least the amount that the price had dropped. Some lose out by losing their job so their losses would be offset by the gains of others…

Companies benefit a ton from cheaper labor. But the existing laborers lose out because of competition driving down wages.

There might be a neg positive effect on the economy, but the benefits go to the rich and the immigrants, at the expense of the local poor and middle class. Prices are not going to fall that much because of immigrant labor, and certainly not enough to make up for the decreased wages.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#104

Post by wfo » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #16

> despite Trump’s advocacy of protectionist tariffs and extreme immigration restrictions, measures that would seem at odds with the radical libertarian image Thiel projects. This is what's most baffling considering Trump is the most statist candidate in modern politics. Most of his success is built on anti-immigration and tariffs. He may agree with more non-interventionist/isolationist foreign policy of Trump, but I…

Perhaps out of all the morally reprehensible positions completely at odds with the notion of a free modern society Trump has espoused at one time or another, his intention to crack down on free speech by making it easier to sue those who disagree with you I think is often overlooked.

It is not as flashy as the abuse and bigotry towards every non white-male group under the sun, encouragement of political violence, advocacy of war crimes, torture, the wholehearted embrace of nationalistic fascism, etc.

But recall Thiel was recently in the news for financing the lawsuit that destroyed Gawker as part of a personal vendetta. If Trump had his way, Thiel would likely be able to simply sue them out of existence because he wanted to and was wealthy -- instead of waiting for them to do something illegal and helping to support the resulting lawsuit.

Perhaps the answer is not so strange. Thiel is wealthy and powerful and likes to use that power to reform the world around him as he sees fit, and sees voting for a wealthy and powerful person who wishes to give the wealthy and powerful more power will help to further his ends.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#105

Post by Houshalter » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #26

falsestprophet wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thiel has opposed mass [1] immigration to the United States which should not be mistaken with opposition to all immigration. For context, only 15% of new lawful permanent residents in 2014 were selected for education or skill (the employment-preference category). [1] like (but not limited to) anyone who likes strolling over the border or overstaying visas

The net immigration rate to the US is 0.38%. That's hardly 'mass immigration.' I take it that means he's happy with the status quo? And, if not, when is he going back to Germany?

1 out of 8 people in the US are immigrants. That's the highest it's ever been in recent history. And more than enough to have a big effect on the economy.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#106

Post by return0 » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #16

> despite Trump’s advocacy of protectionist tariffs and extreme immigration restrictions, measures that would seem at odds with the radical libertarian image Thiel projects. This is what's most baffling considering Trump is the most statist candidate in modern politics. Most of his success is built on anti-immigration and tariffs. He may agree with more non-interventionist/isolationist foreign policy of Trump, but I…

One could say he knows he 's an opportunist and willingly projects this image. People of all persuasions can project on him a hope of 'disruption', knowing that what he says now has little chance to be followed by actions. His (unlikely) win would create an open playing field for all kinds of unconventional choices (given that he doesn't really owe a debt to his own party).

In contrast his opponent is way more predictable but also very largely unlikeable.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#107

Post by mwfunk » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

boona wrote: post #100

vasilipupkin wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for example, if it's indeed true that Peter Thiel is skeptical of women's suffrage, then I think it is reasonable to conclude that he is probably at least to some extent an idiot and we should view his actions at least partially through that prism

I would love to hear WHY he's skeptical. I'm sure he's heard all the traditional arguments like we have, which means he has additional information that I don't. Don't you think it's more intellectually honest to question and hear what others have to say rather than just paint them as idiots because they don't believe what you believe.

Why would you assume that someone who mentions Thiel's statements about women's suffrage hasn't heard his arguments? Don't you think it's more intellectually honest to question and hear what others have to say rather than just paint them as idiots because they don't believe what you believe? Also, do you think that it is even theoretically possible for someone to make a meaningful argument that women's suffrage is somehow a bad thing? I certainly don't.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#108

Post by jackcarter » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

jbellis wrote: post #11

elcapitan wrote: post #4

How is "1. e4" an aggressive chess tactic? That's the most classical opening line of all.

It's the f4 afterwards that made it aggressive for Fischer et al. It looks like the reporter didn't understand enough about chess to communicate that. But he did get the first move right!

Fischer did not play the King's Gambit.

http://www.academicchess.org/images/pdf/chessgames/fischerbu...

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#109

Post by zeveb » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #98

randothrowaway wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think pro illegal immigration congressman Luis Gutierrez and the Catholic churches harboring those here illegally would be doing so if most people here coming illegally were from India and Hindu or Sikh?

Yes, I do. There are plenty of non-Hispanic white congressmen who take the same stance as Luis Gutierrez. The truth is that the people behind most of this anti-immigrant rhetoric can't see the humanity of someone who is not of their same skin color. When they call a human being "an illegal" -- it's dehumanizing, and it plainly reveals they don't see their common shared humanity. I've noticed it in the language they u…

> When they call a human being "an illegal" -- it's dehumanizing …

No, it's an accurate, dry, legal characterisation of someone present in the country illegally, much like referring to someone who has murdered someone else as 'a murderer,' or to someone who has shoplifted as 'a shoplifter.'

I'm actually philosophically inclined towards completely open borders (although I have some deep concerns about what that does to community & culture), but an alien who is present illegally is truly an illegal alien. Words mean things, and that's what those words mean.

Re: The Strange Politics of Peter Thiel, Trump’s Most Unlikely Supporter

#110

Post by choko » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

ohnomrbill wrote: post #93

bko wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The billionaire tech investor has been a staunch opponent of immigration. Back in 2008, Gawker found that Thiel had donated $1 million to NumbersUSA, an anti-immigration group that has consistently been labelled racist and a firm fan of active population control. ... > He then invested in the SeaSteading Institute which wanted to turn Thiel’s dream into a reality. The reason? He felt the government wasn’t doing eno…

(Disclaimer: I will vote for some candidate this election, but I would write in a name before voting for Trump.) I see this conflation in almost all the election news I hear - people assume that Trump supporters are against any immigration. In fact, the white, blue collar workers making Trump's base are okay with most immigrants. They (quite understandably) dislike illegal South American immigrants, who compete with…

(disclaimer: also not a Trump supporter)

I don't think Trump's opponents assume that his supporters are against all immigration at all. I think his opponents deliberately misinterpret Trumps' message to paint his supporters as ignorant racists. That's not to say that there aren't Trump supporters who are actually racist, but I see little actual evidence that it's the norm.

Throwing the racist card has been a pretty effective tactic for the left over the past 8 years, so I can't blame them for drawing from that well until it's dry, but I do get tired of the rhetoric. It's not helping the divisiveness in the United States.