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Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

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Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#111

Post by wildmusings »

dragonwriter wrote: post #68
wildmusings wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather live under a liberal, pro-Western, secular military junta, than an illiberal democracy ruled by Islamists who are destroying liberties, hollowing out civil society, and turning the country into a Sunni version of Iran under the Ayatollahs. Fareed Zakaria has a great book, The Future of Freedom , where he discusses, among other things, the perils of illiberal democracy. The bit that really stuck in my head…

> I'd rather live under a liberal, pro-Western, secular military junta, than an illiberal democracy ruled by Islamists who are destroying liberties, hollowing out civil society, and turning the country into a Sunni version of Iran under the Ayatollahs. (1) The Sunni version of Iran under the Ayatollahs is called "Saudi Arabia". (2) Assuming the attribution of the coup to the Gülen movement is accurate, it would likel…

I think Iran is a better comparison. They keep up the pretense and ceremony of democratic legitimacy, have a sizable and somewhat-tolerated liberal civil society, and rose to power by calling the faithful to the streets.

Saudi Arabia is a tough situation. The House of Saud is the only thing standing between the radical imams and total power.

The future of the Middle East looks very dark right now. Egypt is the only large power where the forces of order and civilization are winning.

Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#112

Post by beyti »

Amezarak wrote: post #76
jondubois wrote: post #69

And to think that Turkey was considered for EU membership - That's definitely off the table now. It's a testament as to how quickly Turkey has declined. Even without EU membership, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Turkish people will try to relocate to Europe and elsewhere. This would be a massive brain and capital drain for Turkey - Especially given that this is a country which was considered safe and progressive…

That may be bad for both Turkey and the countries they flee to. Turkey was/is a democracy. The people of Turkey created the current political environment. If they go elsewhere, they will be influencing politics beyond Turkey, maybe in similar ways.

There is a distinct separation between the people who made the country as it is now and the people who couldn't prevent them. As for your concern; the lacking prevention of the now felt almost-dictatorship is a strong evidence of the lack of politics involvement of the group which is against this kind of Turkey now.

So your concern is right, if the people who made this country this way gets to flee; it's not if the people who couldn't stop this country be this way gets to flee.

Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#113

Post by dctoedt »

abrookewood wrote: post #103
wildmusings wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather live under a liberal, pro-Western, secular military junta, than an illiberal democracy ruled by Islamists who are destroying liberties, hollowing out civil society, and turning the country into a Sunni version of Iran under the Ayatollahs. Fareed Zakaria has a great book, The Future of Freedom , where he discusses, among other things, the perils of illiberal democracy. The bit that really stuck in my head…

I agree with you, but I can't help but feel that this position isn't defensible. Don't they have the democratic right to move to a more religious society if the majority want it?

> Don't they have the democratic right to move to a more religious society if the majority want it?

No.

Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#114

Post by harywilke »

MichaelGG wrote: post #75
jondubois wrote: post #69

And to think that Turkey was considered for EU membership - That's definitely off the table now. It's a testament as to how quickly Turkey has declined. Even without EU membership, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Turkish people will try to relocate to Europe and elsewhere. This would be a massive brain and capital drain for Turkey - Especially given that this is a country which was considered safe and progressive…

Will they still get visa free travel to the EU? Seems like they have a big enough stick with all the refugees.

no, and i seriously doubt they were every going to. the list of conditions to be met was long.

Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#115

Post by x1798DE »

jstalin wrote: post #92
_asummers wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's that karma threshhold, if you know offhand?

Must be quite a bit. I have 3700+ and still can't vouch.

GP only has around 2000 karma, so assuming he's not mistaken about being able to vouch, maybe you haven't been in a situation where vouching was necessary?

Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#116

Post by edthrowaway »

nashashmi wrote: post #91
rtkwe wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it had succeeded, they would have got a military dictatorship. That's not a given. Turkey's military has staged quite a few coups over the years and that's really part of their purpose in the Turkish government order. After a few years power usually transitions back to normal democratic elections.

The point is a coup is opposite to that of Democratically elected process. "Part of their purpose" means the democracy is a farce, and there was never a choice of the people.

Many horrible things have been done by democratically-elected governments. In my own country, slavery was actively promoted while we were still one of the world's few "democracies". And as we've seen in more modern times in Iraq and the Balkans, democracy and war-torn ethnically-divided territories do not always work well together.

When I was younger, I thought of democracy as the end-all and be-all of political philosophies, since that the progressive march toward of the perfection of democracy is what was emphasized in school. As an adult, I've come to believe that a nation's true value is in to the extent it promotes the liberty and welfare of all its inhabitants, including minorities.

By this metric, my country, the United States, often viewed as one of the world's "great democracies", is doing relatively poorly.

Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#117

Post by lightlyused »

Fej wrote: post #53
niftich wrote: post #50

If you broadcast amateur radio, is it possible to 'hide' from enforcement? Are there mechanisms that an enforcement authority can use to find your physical location? Is it possible to ostensibly rebroadcast a government-approved channel, but with additional stenography or mixing to embed information?

Law enforcement can triangulate ham radio signals. From what I understand it's relatively easy to do in the US.

There used to be a remote FCC receive site near me. Looked like a fake pine tree. Only new about it because of a local broadcast engineer told me where it was.

Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#118

Post by rtkwe »

nashashmi wrote: post #91
rtkwe wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it had succeeded, they would have got a military dictatorship. That's not a given. Turkey's military has staged quite a few coups over the years and that's really part of their purpose in the Turkish government order. After a few years power usually transitions back to normal democratic elections.

The point is a coup is opposite to that of Democratically elected process. "Part of their purpose" means the democracy is a farce, and there was never a choice of the people.

In places that have a history of subverting democracy by voting in dictatorial leaders all on their own having an institution that is supposed to over throw them strengthens the democracy so long as it's functioning properly and only comes into play at the right times.

It's easy to want a dictator when you're in the majority, they hold the beliefs you do and you're probably going to not be the groups oppressed (at first). Raw complete democracy doesn't have a good way of dealing with a majority wanting to repress a minority. So founders (at least smart ones) put checks in to balance that, in the US it takes the form of the Supreme Court and in Turkey they have the military as a final ultimate check.

edit: Source for my original post (can't edit now) of the history of Turkish coups: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/04/201244728146879...

Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#119

Post by gravypod »

With the hobby already on it's last legs it's sad to see even 1 person loose their license. That's even without taking in consideration the political and social ramifications of these actions.

With an extra exam and a bit of time learning CW I can get news directly from people who live in countries around the world. Now that just isn't possible in some countries.

Re: Turkish government revokes ham radio licenses

#120

Post by killedbydeath »

beyti wrote: post #112
Amezarak wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be bad for both Turkey and the countries they flee to. Turkey was/is a democracy. The people of Turkey created the current political environment. If they go elsewhere, they will be influencing politics beyond Turkey, maybe in similar ways.

There is a distinct separation between the people who made the country as it is now and the people who couldn't prevent them. As for your concern; the lacking prevention of the now felt almost-dictatorship is a strong evidence of the lack of politics involvement of the group which is against this kind of Turkey now. So your concern is right, if the people who made this country this way gets to flee; it's not if the p…

Not necessarily. For example, Erdogan is currently more popular among Turks in Germany than in Turkey, 60% vs 50%[http://www.dw.com/en/i-stand-behind-erdogan-an-afternoon-in-...].
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