Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA • Hacker News Board

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#101

Post by liyanchang » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 8:43 PM UTC

glup wrote: post #65

A note on personal experience as a tech contractor at a federal agency: I worked as a contractor at the US Geological Survey (USGS), in the Department of the Interior each summer between 2006 and 2010. The most useful thing I worked on was a program for calculating air-sea carbon flux: I did the OS X GUI and helped with the core logic (computing air-sea carbon flux is nontrivial). At the time I was appalled that we s…

Disclosure: I'm an engineer at USDS and these are my own opinions.

I'm personally appreciative of the work that you've done and your continued work, in spite of the many challenges and frustrations. There are many ways to serve. It's always incredibly rewarding to be working along side dedicated and talented public servants and contractors. Thank you.

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#102

Post by sn9 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 9:05 PM UTC

the_watcher wrote: post #66

liyanchang wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I'm an engineer at USDS and these are my own opinions. So in my admittedly short time in the government [0], I've witnessed how all of these problems are due to good intentions. That's what makes this all really tough because everything you think is bonkers actually has a reason. The 1400 page travel regulations is a result of trying to prevent fraud - every single issue that comes up results in a new rul…

> every single issue that comes up results in a new rule. This sentence is the simplest explanation for government (and bureaucratic) incompetence. Think about writing software. Is the optimal solution to every single bug to write more code to deal with that specific situation? Of course not. In many cases, sorting out the underlying cause and fixing that (which may involve new code, rewriting old code, or even delet…

Writing software for whom?

Consider the software that NASA writes and how it's written. Rigorously specified, reviewed, and tested by some of the best engineers in the world to the point that almost bug-free code is produced at the expense of a much slower rate of development. Which is the best you can do with billions of dollars and human lives on the line for certain projects.

Now look at most government software infrastructure: frequently mercurial and ambiguous software specifications interacting and/or based on flawed laws and regulations filled with logical contradictions written by Congressmen and lobbyists with perverse incentives. And you have to justify every cent or risk the accusation of wasting taxpayer dollars.

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#103

Post by leg » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 9:09 PM UTC

PKop wrote: post #89

glup wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who says government projects and agencies have to be poorly run? I'm not sure how to test this empirically, but it's always seemed to me that these are the inefficiencies that emerge with scale and incredibly broad objectives—and that the federal gov't actually does a decent job considering. Remind which company has 320m consumers, annual revenue of 6.7 trillion, and 2.8m (non-uniformed) employees? The federal gove…

This is an argument for refactoring into smaller modules. Decentralization. Local and state government taking on more responsibilities, with the added benefit of forcing competition and choice among citizens vs. one-size-fits-all policy.

Except that state and local governments are mostly more corrupt, more poorly run, and less well supervised by the voters.

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#104

Post by devonkim » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 9:21 PM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #92

the_watcher wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every single issue that comes up results in a new rule. This sentence is the simplest explanation for government (and bureaucratic) incompetence. Think about writing software. Is the optimal solution to every single bug to write more code to deal with that specific situation? Of course not. In many cases, sorting out the underlying cause and fixing that (which may involve new code, rewriting old code, or even delet…

You demonstrate intellectual fallacies common amongst software developers: 1. Believing that your experience in one particular field makes you qualified to make pronouncements regarding others about which you know nothing. 2. Believing that problems in other fields are inherently simple to understand and solve, and that the reason they aren't must therefore be due to the malice or incompetence of people working in th…

With these considerations taken we can apply the same problems to people in industrial scale manufacturing that have typically managed many organizations that are now in charge of software projects. Then comes no real effective incentive structure with how most federal contracts are written despite billions spent on lawyers to protect the government and to get the most for the government's dollars supposedly. I've seen far too many projects with clearly the most talented and well-managed contractors getting tossed for actually finishing their deliverables while those that didn't get through 40%+ got renewed because they were just too critical to the political success of the greater project. And they'll continue to cite the project as past performance and renewal as an indicator of competence.

The fact there's so much opposition to USDS and 18F that's greater than any other group ever is the best indicator that the fat, bloated Beltway bandits are worried about their easy road to retirement. This isn't to say everyone's lazy - far from it. But government contracting has been largely insulated from the realities of most commercial enterprises through the politicized veil of "protecting veterans" and "defending the country" and for every legitimate, honest worker there's at least two that just want a cushy 9-5 for 35 years.

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#105

Post by zacharycohn » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

GVIrish wrote: post #30

liyanchang wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I'm an engineer at USDS and these are my own opinions. You make a great point - USDS is just one part of the solution. In fact, in almost all of the USDS projects, we work very closely with agency employees and contractors (many of which are just as talented and have chosen to serve their country). Most of the times, I spend very little time hands-on-keyboard and helping empower the existing team. As for…

That is great news, I think engaging and training COR's across government could yield some real improvements to how these projects go. I'm personally seeing some 18F projects come down the pipe that are truly innovative and hopefully will encourage organizations to think differently about IT procurement. Still a lot of silly stuff out there but at least the ship is starting to change heading.

What 18F projects are you excited about?

[Disclaimer: I work for 18F and will probably point those teams at this comment so they can do a happy dance!]

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#106

Post by aschonfeld » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 9:29 PM UTC

fapjacks wrote: post #98

liyanchang wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I'm an engineer at USDS and these are my own opinions. So in my admittedly short time in the government [0], I've witnessed how all of these problems are due to good intentions. That's what makes this all really tough because everything you think is bonkers actually has a reason. The 1400 page travel regulations is a result of trying to prevent fraud - every single issue that comes up results in a new rul…

I want to work there so bad. USDS or 18F. But I can't get anyone to call me back, even with twenty years working in (and running) startups. Dunno what that's about.

Hi Fapjacks. I'm on the talent team at 18F. Feel free to email me directly at amanda.schonfeld@gsa.gov. We don't have a direct phone number for folks to call, but I will definitely email you back. :)

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#107

Post by zacharycohn » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 9:32 PM UTC

ryanmarsh wrote: post #49

impostervt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but I wonder what the "normal" rate is. As in, do they really get that much, or by stating that rate on their website are they really just trying to say "if you make a lot more than this and care a lot about money, don't bother".

Which is basically why I'm saving to go work there.

Apply soon! We're hungry for help.

[Disclaimer: I work at 18F.]

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#108

Post by zacharycohn » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

sailfast wrote: post #58

ryanmarsh wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They call it a tour of duty for a reason. $163k would be a massive paycut for me but I'd do it and happily burn savings to make a difference for the lives of my fellow veterans.

Love your second sentence, but really wish they would stop calling it a "tour of duty". It's still a pretty solid amount of money (nevermind Federal benefits) but to really transform we need people willing to work over the long haul not just parachute in for short terms. Also (slightly biased of course) I bet you get a bit addicted to the mission and that provides a non-monetary incentive to stick around a bit longer…

[Disclaimer: I work at 18F.]

It's referred to as a tour of duty because most of us are on 2 year appointments. At the end of that 2 years, there's an optional 2 year extension. These orgs haven't been around long enough for anyone to run out their second two years yet.

Personally, I love this format. It never would have even dawned on me to consider applying for a career position in the federal government, but when the job is time-limited, there's some decision making bug in the brain (even though I could have applied for a normal career position and then just left after 4 years!).

It's a great way to entice people to apply who never would have before.

We also need people in for the long haul. But lets solve one problem at a time!

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#109

Post by steven777400 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 9:52 PM UTC

impostervt wrote: post #22

"U.S. Digital Service salaries are set in accordance with the General Schedule Pay Scale, which is capped at $160,300." That's not bad, but not great for really high talent employees. I wonder how many people get that rate though. https://www.usds.gov/join#compensation

As I mentioned in another thread, I work for state government and our IT salaries are capped at a max of around $87k/year (most positions are capped lower). As a result, it's extremely difficult to hire someone who isn't a net negative to the team.

Since we have no power to adjust salaries, we're looking at other avenues, such as doing more "direct from community college" in-training hires as well as non-traditional employment paths.

Unlike USDS and 18F, we don't even have exciting projects, a shortcut around bureaucracy, or cutting edge technologies to sell with. The only sales tool we have for candidates is "if you complete your 6 months probationary, you can essentially never be fired or laid off." Sometimes, that attracts the wrong sort of candidate, as you can probably imagine. :)

Re: Inside the Obama Tech Surge as It Hacks the Pentagon and VA

#110

Post by nn3 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 9:53 PM UTC

sn9 wrote: post #102

the_watcher wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every single issue that comes up results in a new rule. This sentence is the simplest explanation for government (and bureaucratic) incompetence. Think about writing software. Is the optimal solution to every single bug to write more code to deal with that specific situation? Of course not. In many cases, sorting out the underlying cause and fixing that (which may involve new code, rewriting old code, or even delet…

Writing software for whom? Consider the software that NASA writes and how it's written. Rigorously specified, reviewed, and tested by some of the best engineers in the world to the point that almost bug-free code is produced at the expense of a much slower rate of development. Which is the best you can do with billions of dollars and human lives on the line for certain projects. Now look at most government software i…

>Rigorously specified, reviewed, and tested by some of the best engineers in the world

Actually NASA culture is to strictly avoid super stars. See:

http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff

In the shuttle group's culture, there are no superstar programmers. The whole approach to developing software is intentionally designed not to rely on any particular person.

And the culture is equally intolerant of creativity, the individual coding flourishes and styles that are the signature of the all-night software world. "People ask, doesn't this process stifle creativity? You have to do exactly what the manual says, and you've got someone looking over your shoulder," says Keller. "The answer is, yes, the process does stifle creativity."