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After the coup, Turkey turns against America

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Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#261
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not. It's the term "mentally ill" that has a specific, technical meaning. "Mad" is simply a descriptive qualification of perceived irrational behaviour, it's not a diagnostic assessment of mental ability.

> perceived irrational behaviour If someone is irrational, how should we react? Sympathetic? Fearful? Most things we consider mental illnesses are irrational behaviors. When used as a propaganda terms, calling a political opponent "mad" or "half mad" is intended to call into question his/her beliefs and statements, and to create fear that his/her actions will be unpredictable (counter to his/her stated objectives, et…

Most things we consider mental illnesses are irrational behaviors.

But the converse is not true: not every irrational behaviour is a mental illness.

You also left out the word perceived, which changes the argument from individual interpretation to universal absolutes, of which there are very few.

calling a political opponent "mad" or "half mad" is intended to call into question his/her beliefs and statements

Yes, it is. It is not intended as a medical diagnosis, which is what you were implying.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#262
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> perceived irrational behaviour If someone is irrational, how should we react? Sympathetic? Fearful? Most things we consider mental illnesses are irrational behaviors. When used as a propaganda terms, calling a political opponent "mad" or "half mad" is intended to call into question his/her beliefs and statements, and to create fear that his/her actions will be unpredictable (counter to his/her stated objectives, et…

Most things we consider mental illnesses are irrational behaviors. But the converse is not true: not every irrational behaviour is a mental illness. You also left out the word perceived , which changes the argument from individual interpretation to universal absolutes, of which there are very few. calling a political opponent "mad" or "half mad" is intended to call into question his/her beliefs and statements Yes, it…

> It is not intended as a medical diagnosis

So then it is intended to rally political action.

Suppose two people agree on the same set of factual assumptions and are both rational. They may still disagree on priorities. We see this in the US in cases where two rights are in conflict, a court may find in favor of one taking precedence.

The problem with calling one's political opponent irrational is that doing so is intended to marginalize him by making his assumptions irrelevant. In fact, it is intended to make his entire thought process irrelevant by framing it as disconnected from reality.

If I assume the person sitting across the coffee shop from me is rational, I can assume he won't come over and take my life in a murder-suicide. If I assume he is not rational, I can be assured of no such thing.

So the name calling of "irrational" is predominantly a propaganda technique intended to marginalize an opponent, not to simply find fault with his reasoning, since if a person is irrational his reasoning is irrelevant (since his reasoning process is, by definition, broken).

If the facts were laid out in plain view, perhaps it would not be so clear that the political opponent was in the wrong. Perhaps we might find some common ground or focus narrowly on differing priorities.

Which is why we find accusations of irrationality in situations where compromise or moderation is not desired. Similarly, accusations that a person is a "terrorist" or "supports terrorism" is a similar ploy.

We live in a world in which character assassination campaigns are levied against many foreign leaders.

Do we think for a moment that our own leaders are in unique possession of rationality? Of morality? Judging by the framing in the press, nearly all foreign leaders are suspect or corrupt in some way.

The reason I disapprove of this is because having a knee-jerk adversarial expectation of other nations does not benefit us at all.

In fact, the technique is used to draw attention away from the many failings and shortcomings of our own political leaders. It's far easier to vilify someone like Putin or Saddam or Erdogan than to own up to one's own horrid track record. The public loves this, and considers it sport much like the olympics. It's an ugly side of humanity, and has the effect of harming our own institutions and leaders by deflecting much-needed scrutiny.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#263
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> using violence to impose their... Isn't the US using violence (bombs, drones, etc.) to impose its version of things on the region too? I'm not sure how the two are different, other than that the US has a LOT more resources and can spend money on things like "smart bombs" that help convince Americans that we are carefully avoiding civilian casualties -- when in fact the goal is to scare the civilians shitless so the…

>not sure how the two are different It's good guys with bombs vs bad guys with bombs. If you feel the Islamic State governance is as good as US governance feel free to go hang out with them in Syria and enjoy the wonderful society they are creating. Only be prepared to be machine gunned or similar if you try to leave.

That is beside the point.

The point is why do we need to be involved in fighting ISIS? The US botched a Trillion dollar nation building project in Iraq and created the beginnings of ISIS, and now thanks to ISIS videos and our own government's promoting them we get tons of propaganda telling us to fear them.

All governments start out looking like mafias and slowly gain legitimacy as they become powerful enough to start retelling history in a way that makes them look legitimate.

The best way for the US to help the people of the middle east would be to incentivize ISIS to undertake humanitarian projects and to build much-needed physical and government infrastructure.

Instead, we decide to make them villains and to help them destroy the region, while also using them as an excuse to continue meddling in the region.

The only reason to try to prevent ISIS taking larger control over the middle east is for the US to keep it for itself. This is only part of the national interest because of the oil resources there. It's amazing how low we are willing to sink to protect our ability to extract oil.

Let ISIS create a new government and horde the oil. We should be spending the Trillions of dollars on alternative energy research and education, etc. Oil is the past. The US has such a large stake in the middle east that it has forced us to terrorize the region for decades and to layer on such a thick layer of propaganda that most Americans hate and fear it almost instinctively.

This is a failed strategy and it is also nearly obsolete. It's odd to watch us keep doubling down on it with every new president.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I do not see how his support of ISIS is necessarily harmful Wow. You dont see how video taping beheadings, raping tens of thousands of women, killing millions, selling stolen oil, and suicide bombings are 'necessarily harmful' I dont know that ive ever encountered someone with such a mispointed moral compass, absolutely amazing what people can justify in their heads.

The tactics used by ISIS are quite barbaric. But so are the tactics used by the US. The two are not equivalent, but I'd hope that the side with millionfold more resources would hold itself to a slightly higher standard. What criteria would you impose upon a grassroots political movement in the middle east? Is it allowed to use force? Should it invest in smart bombs before proceeding to get involved in conflict? There…

>What criteria would you impose upon a grassroots political movement in the middle east?

not filming ritualistic beheadings

not raping thousands of women

not killing millions of civilians

not stealing and selling oil

not performing suicide bombings

to add to that:

not promoting the death of entire populations of people

not claiming to have religious authority to commit these atrocities

not using violence of any kind to further their political agenda

That would be a good start.

>Is it allowed to use force?

no. no political movement has any moral authority if it uses physical violence.

>should it invest in smart bombs before proceeding to get involved in conflict?

seems you predicted my answer to the previous question wrongly. no they should spend time getting bomb technologies because if your politics takes violence to convince others, you are not a political movement, but a terrorist organization.

>There is a tremendous asymmetry of force between the US and ISIS

there is also extreme assymetry between the libertarian party and the republican party, yet the libertarian grassroots movement doesnt resort to violence of any kind to further its political agenda. same can be said for the green party or tea party.

>To claim that a suicide bombing of civilians is morally worse than a drone attack on civilians is to be completely deluded.

To identify what is morally wrong, you need to determine the reasoning behind the action. For example, is it worse if a 17 year old kid gets in a car accident and someone is killed, or if a 17 year old kid takes a gun to a super market and shoots a random shopper? In one case, there was an accidental death, still very much a crime and the person responsible will still be punished. in the other case we have a case of clear premeditated murder.

You are making an argument that premeditated purposeful killing is on the same moral level as accidental killings. You are free to hold that view, but you will not find general support for it. This is not because of propaganda, it is because of the intent of the actors in the two cases.

If your intent is to kill as many civilians as possible, you are more morally corrupt than someone who intends to kill a specific known target and accidentally kills bystanders.

Is it worse when a cop shoots a bad guy running down the street and a stray bullet kills a bystander in the process, or is it worse when a random person runs down the street shooting indiscriminately?

>As an American, I'm not sold on the idea that the US should be meddling in the middle east

on this we can agree

>and so I choose not to buy into the propaganda about ISIS

I mean, SOMEONE beheaded those people on video in the name of ISIS - are you suggesting they do not engage in brutalistic tactics? are you suggesting that they dont capture and systematically rape women? Have you looked at ISIS's own materials to determine their objectives?

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#265
post #14

What coup? This is looking more like the entire event was staged as a pretext for a complete takeover, similar to the Reichstag fire of 1930s Germany.

I'm very interested in the potential role of surveillance technology in a scenario like this. Based on the Snowden leaks, I am left with the impression that the concept of a staged event could be modernized to be largely hands off. The government could monitor potential actors and always be one step ahead. They could even reach potential coup collaborators before the planners and threaten/buy them, creating large holes in the effort. By being able to closely monitor as many people as need be, you could safely let a coup attempt play out while maintaining the upper hand the entire time.

It sounds like the perfect project for a intelligence team located in the president's basement tech bunker.

See http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/03/turkey-big...

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#266

Oh nice. The white European blaming is already starting. Let's forget that the majority of Turks elected a half-mad men that bases his discourse in the superiority of Islam and in the ethnical cleansing of Kurdistan. Let's forget that Erdogan supported the Islamic state. Let's forget that the Turks re-elected him after all this. Let's forget all these pro-Erdogan demonstrations going on in the streets of Ankara and I…

Your comments in this thread are violating the HN guidelines. Please don't conduct political flamewars here.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12128627 and marked it off-topic.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#267
post #227

"half-mad" does not imply "mentally ill". I understand it's popular in the US, but please stop redefining terms to suit your narrative.

A national slight on top of a nitpick does not make for good HN comments.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12129043 and marked it off-topic.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#268
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has some of the best SAMs in the business. They don't need to use jets; Turkish F-16's wouldn't last long if Russia fired up their anti-aircraft systems and engaged.

The details that can be found on wikipedia are astounding. Across the board Turkey has a lot of 80s era gear that's been lightly upgraded over the years and generally the Russians have about 10x the quantity of 2000s to 2010s era gear. For example Turkey has 240 very theoretically active 80s era F-16 planes (how many are not deadlined / mission capable at this instant is a mystery, half maybe?) vs the Russian militar…

Turkey is still building F-16 components under license, feeding the Lockheed-Martin supply line for many customers. I don't believe they have any problems maintaining serviceability.

Many have already been upgraded to Block 50 and the most basic are Block 30, all well beyond 1980s capabilities.

Avionics maintenance might be an issue but but the Israelis are quite capable of aiding there.

Your criticisms were quite valid in the 1980s when both Turkey and Greece were considered liabilities in terms of NATO capability but certainly not today.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tactics used by ISIS are quite barbaric. But so are the tactics used by the US. The two are not equivalent, but I'd hope that the side with millionfold more resources would hold itself to a slightly higher standard. What criteria would you impose upon a grassroots political movement in the middle east? Is it allowed to use force? Should it invest in smart bombs before proceeding to get involved in conflict? There…

>What criteria would you impose upon a grassroots political movement in the middle east? not filming ritualistic beheadings not raping thousands of women not killing millions of civilians not stealing and selling oil not performing suicide bombings to add to that: not promoting the death of entire populations of people not claiming to have religious authority to commit these atrocities not using violence of any kind…

The things you describe are permutations of how any political organization behaves. For clarity, the class of political organizations that use force/violence. That class includes all governments.

Filming ritualistic beheadings is a propaganda technique. It helps both ISIS and the US. This is why the filmed beheadings are played for the US audience by American media. The meaning of the beheadings is different for both audiences, but ISIS continues to produce the videos because it views the tradeoff as being beneficial to its growth and survival.

Rapes are unfortunately a standard part of military conduct. Due to financial constraints, combatants must be recruited with promises of glory in the afterlife, but the more secular among them may join just for the opportunity to have sex. This is sad and extremely ugly, but it is a response to resource scarcity and the need to recruit fighters. The constituents must consent to military action by joining, and the compensation (supernatural or earthly) is the price of that consent.

In the US, soldiers are recruited from the ghettos, slums, and backwoods of America. Many are desperate to be educated and to become employable because the K-12 system has failed them. In the first world we can pay our soldiers with salary, training, and subsidized loans. This is not possible without significant wealth, which is why a professional class of soldiers did not exist in Europe until economic development made it feasible.

Suicide bombings are not any different from drone strikes. For a given drone strike, there is some nonzero probability of civilian deaths. The bar is pretty low, as we've found out. You can call them "accidental" but that is a propaganda word. The truth is, the value we attribute to a human life in regions where we have drone strikes is appallingly low.

Further, the purpose of suicide bombings is terror, which is the same purpose that drone strikes serve. The potential victims are intended to lie awake at night hearing the buzz of propellers, unable to sleep soundly in case a bomb rains down upon their home. The intention of flying lots of drones everywhere is to make the US force projection seem unstoppable and ubiquitous, so that the locals get fed up with living in terror of being "accidentally" killed and stand up to their leaders.

This is the same goal of suicide bombings, incidentally.

Rhetoric about entire populations of people and all the religious rhetoric is part of ISIS' growth strategy. For historical reasons, secularism is associated with occupation and mistrust, and Islam is largely decentralized (friendly to pluralism). It makes sense to attach any grassroots movement to the existing social structures and network of Islam. This both creates a vocabulary for the struggle but also a moral code that has stood the test of time. This happens everywhere... Religion was used in the American abolitionist movement and anti-slavery movement, as well as the civil rights movement. It is used in America today to support the war on terror as well. ISIS is simply doing the same thing. Over time, if ISIS gains power it will moderate its stated views in order to appeal to a wider audience. Early adopters like highly opinionated, absolutist rhetoric and ISIS knows that. It can be safely ignored as irrelevant to ISIS's slow process of institution building, and can also be considered irrelevant to ISIS's military strategy.

> if your politics takes violence to convince others, you are not a political movement, but a terrorist organization

Was this true of the colonists in the American revolution? How do you determine the legitimate use of lethal force by a political organization. I'm curious how you reason about this. My take is that it's all equally illegitimate, but strongly desired by all political organizations (power aggregators). Power is useful because it lets the group control some aspect of society. Without the need to control, there would be no need for power and no need to consolidate power.

> yet the libertarian grassroots movement doesnt resort to violence of any kind to further its political agenda. same can be said for the green party or tea party.

This is true, but not for the reason you suppose, but because in the US there is already a government monopoly on force. This is why the issue of gun control is so clear-cut for most people. Clearly nobody is going to form a successful militia with their 2nd amendment rights, so why worry about that aspect of the 2nd amendment. Gun control is considered actionable precisely because guns could be easily taken by force from all gun owners if the government desired to do so.

The goal of all political organizations is to a) take power, and b) control a monopoly on lethal force in their region of influence. Whether we like it or not, and whether we agree with it or not, this is a law of the universe of politics. It's an artificial distinction to claim that simply because organizations in the US do not seek to overturn the government's monopoly on force that a monopoly on lethal force isn't the first and foremost priority of every government.

The Green and Tea party are not revolutionary movements. If one of them started to look like one, it would quickly be categorized as a terrorist organization. Consider how quickly the Patriot Act allowed officials to classify all sort of behavior as "terrorism". There is no room in the US for any group to attempt this sort of thing.

I do not think of this as good or bad, it's just the way human political groups work.

> To identify what is morally wrong, you need to determine the reasoning behind the action.

This is true, but I think that your view of ISIS comes from some convenient definitions about what constitutes war and what constitutes a combatant:

Definitions I'd use: A war is a political dispute that has become violent. The notion of a combatant came out of Geneva Convention-era conflict involving major powers. In an asymmetrical conflict such as the US vs ISIS, the notion of a combatant is of limited usefulness.

This is why the US sends captives to Gitmo, because an offshore location was needed to get around the legal ambiguity of doing so.

ISIS (or any small group aka "terrorist" organization) will attempt to break the enemy's will in any way possible. This includes attacking civilians, because there are few American combatants in the region, and traditional military style campaigns against American forces would be doomed.

This brings us to the goal of war. Why fight a war? To attempt to break the enemy's will to continue fighting. Historically, the US has been flexible about what it considers acceptable conduct depending on the probability of victory. The lower the probability, the more slack is allowed in the definition.

So I'd argue that if you are ISIS you will do as many acts to break the will of Americans as you possibly can, and you won't worry about it if some civilians get killed. Surely you'd rather kill military members, but if doing so doesn't seem possible you'll target civilians. Terrorism is a tactic by which an attack creates fear disproportional to the actual amount of damage (property damage and loss of life).

So unless you think ISIS should just give up, I think it's hard to find fault with its tactics on a moral basis. Yes, I disapprove of the tactics, but I also disapprove of using drones the way the US does, and the many other things the US does that are essentially terrorism.

More broadly, political conflict will always exist between nations. I'd prefer it if my own country was completely transparent about the objective of any use of force. National interest is fine, but we are told that the US is destroying the middle east for noble, moral reasons. This is far from true.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#270
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>not sure how the two are different It's good guys with bombs vs bad guys with bombs. If you feel the Islamic State governance is as good as US governance feel free to go hang out with them in Syria and enjoy the wonderful society they are creating. Only be prepared to be machine gunned or similar if you try to leave.

That is beside the point. The point is why do we need to be involved in fighting ISIS? The US botched a Trillion dollar nation building project in Iraq and created the beginnings of ISIS, and now thanks to ISIS videos and our own government's promoting them we get tons of propaganda telling us to fear them. All governments start out looking like mafias and slowly gain legitimacy as they become powerful enough to star…

Well, each to their own. Personally I don't like rape slavery and genocide and am just fine with killing the fuckers.
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