Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

After the coup, Turkey turns against America

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 298 posts

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#251

Post by zimbu668 »

grandalf wrote: post #236
unprepare wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I do not see how his support of ISIS is necessarily harmful Wow. You dont see how video taping beheadings, raping tens of thousands of women, killing millions, selling stolen oil, and suicide bombings are 'necessarily harmful' I dont know that ive ever encountered someone with such a mispointed moral compass, absolutely amazing what people can justify in their heads.

The tactics used by ISIS are quite barbaric. But so are the tactics used by the US. The two are not equivalent, but I'd hope that the side with millionfold more resources would hold itself to a slightly higher standard. What criteria would you impose upon a grassroots political movement in the middle east? Is it allowed to use force? Should it invest in smart bombs before proceeding to get involved in conflict? There…

>What criteria would you impose upon a grassroots political movement in the middle east?

Maybe not genocide? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_ISIL

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#252

Post by [deleted] »

gkya wrote: post #138
pluma wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind those military coups have generally been relatively peaceful. Erdogan called the coup leaders a "junta" but that evokes the wrong images. The military is sworn to uphold the ideals of the Republic. The police is sworn to serve the government. The military has always tried to keep civilians out of the conflicts. As a German and knowing my country's history I think a violent escape hatch is always necessar…

> Keep in mind those military coups have generally been relatively peaceful. I hope that this is ignorance. In '61 the prime minister and two ministers were executed. In '80 there were about 600 thousand arrests, thousands of torture cases and thousands of killings. The sufferers were mostly communists and leftist alike, and extreme-right. I'm from Turkey and I'll tell you this: If we have all these problems, it's be…

[deleted]

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#253

Post by grandalf »

tremon wrote: post #249
grandalf wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "half mad" isn't included in that article at all. I think you might be trolling.

I'm not. It's the term "mentally ill" that has a specific, technical meaning. "Mad" is simply a descriptive qualification of perceived irrational behaviour, it's not a diagnostic assessment of mental ability.

> perceived irrational behaviour

If someone is irrational, how should we react? Sympathetic? Fearful? Most things we consider mental illnesses are irrational behaviors.

When used as a propaganda terms, calling a political opponent "mad" or "half mad" is intended to call into question his/her beliefs and statements, and to create fear that his/her actions will be unpredictable (counter to his/her stated objectives, etc.)

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#254

Post by tim333 »

tremon wrote: post #235
matt4077 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a bit of reading comprehension, you'd notice that I don't disagree – Erdogan is one of the reasons I'm glad there's a "biological term limit" that should hit him in the next 10 years. The people are equally to blame (though it becomes harder when the disappearance of democratic institutions makes ignorance more understandable). Also I guess that Mr. Trump is a good example of what can happen even in the most sta…

I am saying that Europe had a golden opportunity to gain a strong foothold in the middle east But I think that is showing some misunderstanding about the role and purpose of the EU: it simply is not and was never intended to be an imperialist engine. It is a trading bloc that primarily operates to harmonize markets , not governments. The entire reason why Turkey had to jump through so many hoops to join the EU is bec…

Some people want the EU to basically harmonize markets but there are a lot that want it to do more than that. One of the main arguments in Brexit was the extent to which the EU could control non market stuff like immigration and human rights law and Turkey only dropped the death penalty to fit in with EU standards.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#255

Post by tremon »

fredThrind wrote: post #200
jessriedel wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No existing democracies are pure democracies, in the sense that the have non-democratic elements, often enshrined in a constitution, that constrain the government. In the US, unelected judges with lifetime appointments strike down laws passed democratically, in accordance with a constitution that none of us alive had any input in writing. We've all gotten used to that idea, but it was extremely controversial when it…

The US is hardly a good comparison: the US constitution is deeply anti-democratic when compared to other liberal democracies, and even when compared to the States of the US because it is almost impossible to amend ( http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_ch... ). The fact that judges are forced to invent new rights in the U.S. because a bunch of long-dead guys couldn't predict the future is, in its…

Why do you assume that it's easier in other countries? The Netherlands has about the same safeguards for its constitution:

It provides that an amendment can be proposed either by a two-thirds majority in both the House and the Senate or by a convention, called into being by Congress, after a request from two-thirds of the states.

In NL: it requires a simple majority in both houses, but we don't have the escape hatch of initiating such a change from lower government tiers.

then comes step two: ratification by three-quarters of the states.

In NL, step two is harder: the proposal must wait until the next parliament term (or parliament can dissolve itself and trigger early elections). Now it requires a supermajority (of 2/3rds) in both houses to pass.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#256

Post by usrusr »

tremon wrote: post #108
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and important enough as an ally to NATO and Europe" I have to imagine at some point Europe will have had enough of Erdogan.

Europe will have to tolerate Erdogan until it starts reinvesting in its own military. Especially with the UK out of the picture, mainland Europe has very little military capability.

Europe has been running a pretty sizable shared military investment programme, it's called Greece. One has to wonder how much of their crisis would be left without that NATO-internal arms race vs Turkey (and the cheering exporters in Germany and France who happily supplied both).

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#257

Post by tremon »

tim333 wrote: post #254
tremon wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am saying that Europe had a golden opportunity to gain a strong foothold in the middle east But I think that is showing some misunderstanding about the role and purpose of the EU: it simply is not and was never intended to be an imperialist engine. It is a trading bloc that primarily operates to harmonize markets , not governments. The entire reason why Turkey had to jump through so many hoops to join the EU is bec…

Some people want the EU to basically harmonize markets but there are a lot that want it to do more than that. One of the main arguments in Brexit was the extent to which the EU could control non market stuff like immigration and human rights law and Turkey only dropped the death penalty to fit in with EU standards.

non market stuff like immigration

Free movement of labour is a market requisite in the EEA. Britain stands to find out the same: want to remain in the single market, accept free movement.

human rights law

The ECHR is not part of the treaties of the EU. Yes, it is a prerequisite of EU membership, but it is a different treaty. Plenty of non-EU nations are signatories, even Russia.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#258

Post by tim333 »

grandalf wrote: post #236
unprepare wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I do not see how his support of ISIS is necessarily harmful Wow. You dont see how video taping beheadings, raping tens of thousands of women, killing millions, selling stolen oil, and suicide bombings are 'necessarily harmful' I dont know that ive ever encountered someone with such a mispointed moral compass, absolutely amazing what people can justify in their heads.

The tactics used by ISIS are quite barbaric. But so are the tactics used by the US. The two are not equivalent, but I'd hope that the side with millionfold more resources would hold itself to a slightly higher standard. What criteria would you impose upon a grassroots political movement in the middle east? Is it allowed to use force? Should it invest in smart bombs before proceeding to get involved in conflict? There…

ISIS isn't much of a grassroots political movement http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3190314/The-secret-I...

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#259

Post by grandalf »

zimbu668 wrote: post #251
grandalf wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tactics used by ISIS are quite barbaric. But so are the tactics used by the US. The two are not equivalent, but I'd hope that the side with millionfold more resources would hold itself to a slightly higher standard. What criteria would you impose upon a grassroots political movement in the middle east? Is it allowed to use force? Should it invest in smart bombs before proceeding to get involved in conflict? There…

>What criteria would you impose upon a grassroots political movement in the middle east? Maybe not genocide? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_ISIL

A fine criterion as long as you acknowledge that what the US is doing is a sort of genocide as well. Consider the death toll among fighting aged males in the middle east since the 1970s.

Why? The US overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran, and supported both sides in the Iran/Iraq war in order to destabilize the region and disempower both regimes.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#260

Post by tim333 »

grandalf wrote: post #237
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not see how his support of ISIS is necessarily harmful. // How about because they are unlawfully killing, raping, torturing, people and using violence to impose their form of Islamic Caliphate on unwilling people - doesn't that make it harmful in your opinion?

> using violence to impose their... Isn't the US using violence (bombs, drones, etc.) to impose its version of things on the region too? I'm not sure how the two are different, other than that the US has a LOT more resources and can spend money on things like "smart bombs" that help convince Americans that we are carefully avoiding civilian casualties -- when in fact the goal is to scare the civilians shitless so the…

>not sure how the two are different

It's good guys with bombs vs bad guys with bombs. If you feel the Islamic State governance is as good as US governance feel free to go hang out with them in Syria and enjoy the wonderful society they are creating. Only be prepared to be machine gunned or similar if you try to leave.

Post reply on HN