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After the coup, Turkey turns against America

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Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#241

Post by tremon »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #215
pluma wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to put this on either the EU or Turkey alone. There were many factors prevent Turkish membership but the parent is right: religion played a huge role in the public opinion. I remember Merkel actually saying that Europe was founded on "Christian ideals" (nevermind the actual ideals having more to do with post-renaissance secularism than original Christian dogma) -- the same Merkel nationalists…

>the actual ideals having more to do with post-renaissance secularism // Could you go in to that a little, a few examples maybe of the main non-Christian ideals that underpin the founding of Europe.

Some pointers to start with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

the central doctrines [..] were individual liberty and religious tolerance in opposition to an absolute monarchy and the fixed dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church [..] along with increased questioning of religious orthodoxy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9,_%C3%A9galit%C3%A...

The ideals of the French Revolution eventually became the underpinnings of both the US Constitution and the European and UN Declarations of Human Rights. The reason why they're called non-Christian is because they originated as a countermovement to religious doctrine.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#242

Post by tim333 »

loxs wrote: post #191
vintermann wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…

This is going to be controversial, but where is the proof that "democracy" is the biggest value to be pursued? In my opinion democracy is only a tool, not goal. And I think sometimes (Kemalist Turkey is one example) it's better for a society to not implement "pure" democracy in the name of better values like secularism, freedom etc. UK/Brexit is also a good example of majority of people being stupid and hurting thems…

Indeed "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#243

Post by somenomadicguy »

enimodas wrote: post #198
somenomadicguy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American in Türkiye, I do not believe that we had anything directly to do with the coup, but I believe we knew about it, and we informed him ahead of time. Until about his recent to the US for Muhamed Ali's funeral, Erdoğan was his usual grumpy-old-grandfather self. He was on television every day spreading conspiracy theories, hatred, and misogyny. Within days of returning, he surpised us all by - Repairing tie…

But wouldn't the USA gain more by letting the coup succeed than by letting it fail?

I'm not sure what we would gain from a successful coup. It could very well cause a civil war, and there are too many of those going on in this region right now.

Erdoğan is the dictator we know, and while replacing him would be nice, it needs to be done democratically or the country would fall into civil war, or possibly worse. Türkiye is the last line of defense between the East and the West. Any instability right now could be disastrous for all of Europe.

Gülen is an Islamist seeking to build a non-secular government. An Islamist had control of the military, they could enforce Sharia law to some extent and destroy what is both an important shipping route and block access to an important route of defense against Russia.

Contrary to popular belief, this is a semi-functioning democracy. The HDP received 13% of the vote last year, and now they have representation in parliament for the first time.

Also, allowing a coup to happen, or even worse, causing one, would have disastrous consequences for NATO.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#244

Post by JohnStrange »

fredThrind wrote: post #94
emilsedgh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

I've been reading this sort of thing a lot recently. Indeed, I think someone admiringly called Turkey's military "the world's best armed constitutional court". Yet, from what I was able to gather, even the Turkish opposition parties objected to the coup, and comments from ordinary Turks (and interestingly Greeks) were that Turkish coups were very bad for them. Many of us presume to have the right to decide the fates…

The opposition parties and other opposition only object to the coup, because otherwise they would be arrested or even beaten to death.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#245

Post by pjc50 »

pythia__ wrote: post #228
pjc50 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? Most western governments hand over peacefully after elections.

That is exactly the point. Holding elections, even peaceful, transparent elections, is not the same thing as "replacing the government." Most government employees and non-employees who heavily influence policy are not elected and can't be replaced through elections.

This reduces into a linguistic question of what Karl Popper actually meant, which is kind of .. unfalsifiable.

At least in UK politics, 'government' explicitly means "Her Majesty's Government", ie the Prime Minister and those they appoint to assist them. Not the Crown, not the permanent state.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#246

Post by tremon »

grandalf wrote: post #238
tremon wrote: post #227

"half-mad" does not imply "mentally ill". I understand it's popular in the US, but please stop redefining terms to suit your narrative.

What does it mean? I hadn't realized it was a technical term with a specific meaning. To me it suggests that a person is suffering from some degree of mental illness.

I hadn't realized it was a technical term with a specific meaning

Well, it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#247

Post by jbmorgado »

grandalf wrote: post #238
tremon wrote: post #227

"half-mad" does not imply "mentally ill". I understand it's popular in the US, but please stop redefining terms to suit your narrative.

What does it mean? I hadn't realized it was a technical term with a specific meaning. To me it suggests that a person is suffering from some degree of mental illness.

No, it also can mean someone violent or angry and lacking restrain.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#248

Post by grandalf »

tremon wrote: post #246
grandalf wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean? I hadn't realized it was a technical term with a specific meaning. To me it suggests that a person is suffering from some degree of mental illness.

I hadn't realized it was a technical term with a specific meaning Well, it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

The term "half mad" isn't included in that article at all. I think you might be trolling.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#249

Post by tremon »

grandalf wrote: post #248
tremon wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't realized it was a technical term with a specific meaning Well, it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

The term "half mad" isn't included in that article at all. I think you might be trolling.

I'm not. It's the term "mentally ill" that has a specific, technical meaning.

"Mad" is simply a descriptive qualification of perceived irrational behaviour, it's not a diagnostic assessment of mental ability.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#250

Post by aws_ls »

denzil_correa wrote: post #233
pluma wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you think my view is bigoted. I'm not saying he is evil, I don't agree with death penalties anywhere in Turkey our not, I don't think he "degraded morals" (what does that even mean?) and I don't think he has harmed the Turkish economy. I'm saying he is objectively harming the ideals the Turkish Republic was founded on by Atatürk. I'm not saying this because I think those ideals would allow holding Tu…

> I genuinely wish Germany was founded on Atatürk's principles instead of the mess we have Curious, what mess does Germany find itself in with respect to Ataturk's principles?

I think @pluma means that the mass nationalistic hysteria which was generated after WW1 leading to WW2, would not have happened, if like Turkey military, German military would have preempted all the events by a coup.

Also they suggest that the present mass nationalism in Turkey has vague equivalence in what happened in Germany after WW1 leading upto WW2.

PS: I am finding this page discussions very educating. Thanks for several comments by @pluma, and also some very good arguments against.

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