After the coup, Turkey turns against America • Hacker News Board

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#151

Post by return0 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:58 PM UTC

joesmo wrote: post #84

matt4077 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will probably go done in history as the EU's worst mistake – far worse than Greece or Brexit – not to have provided Turkey with a realistic path to membership. Around 1995-2005, Turkey was growing economically, a civil society was taking root and the people had an optimistic outlook friendly to the west. Erdogan was a mildly-religious fan of the EU and keen on economic progress in his first years. I'm not saying t…

The other way to look at it is that Europe dodged a huge bullet by not creating said path to the EU for Turkey. It's not like Erdogan would have turned away from being an authoritarian dictator simply because Turkey was in the EU and things like Brexit would now have been a minor worry compared to an unstable state run by a authoritarian dictator that exemplifies everything the EU abhors. It's more than just the rati…

He would not be able to do many of the things he does simply because he would have to conform to EU regulation. He may be popular at home, but EU is also popular, and i believe a credible path to membership would strengthen that support.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#152

Post by pabloski » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:58 PM UTC

denzil_correa wrote: post #120

fredThrind wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading this sort of thing a lot recently. Indeed, I think someone admiringly called Turkey's military "the world's best armed constitutional court". Yet, from what I was able to gather, even the Turkish opposition parties objected to the coup, and comments from ordinary Turks (and interestingly Greeks) were that Turkish coups were very bad for them. Many of us presume to have the right to decide the fates…

> There is no excuse for human rights abuses, but if the majority of Turks believe they've been chafing under Kemalism for 90 years, and want to try something different, what right do we have to presume to dictate to them? Democracy is not simply the rule of majority. There are certain fundamental aspects of democracy that are sacrilege and can not be broken down even if 99/100 citizens want it.

Are you serious? Democracy is first and foremost the government of the majority. Whoever defines himself as democratic must respect the will of the majority. Sic et simplicitur.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#153

Post by afsina » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

finid wrote: post #118

pluma wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is getting downvoted because it sounds like hyperbole, but the comparison is quite apt. The Reichstag fire was blamed on the communists by the nazi party to brand them as traitors much like the coup is being blamed on the Gulen movement (which had a fall out with the AKP, Erdogan's ruling party). All signs point to the coup not being related to the Gulen movement at all and a lot of Erdogan's actions post-coup h…

> I personally think it was inevitable given the history of Turkey but it was carried out so incompetently and with little to no support from the military leadership that it's at least possible that it was intentionally made to happen the way it did It's been reported that Turkish intelligence knew about it and did nothing.

Nope. According to news, they learned it several hours ago (around 4 pm) but information was quite limited. They did try taking preventive measures but failed to stop the coup (You can read one coup army officials statements on that). However, probably because of it coup started earlier than planned and it was one of the reasons of the failure.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#154

Post by grandalf » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

jbmorgado wrote: post #127

grandalf wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is full of unsupported propaganda statements. For the sake of your own rationality, please try to make a rational argument supporting them.

The comment is totally factual, except the very last sentence which is my personal logic conclusion to what is presented before. If you don't think so, perhaps you could pinpoint anything in my comment that is not true.

Do you have evidence that Erdogan is mentally ill? This is a critique commonly made toward political leaders we disagree with. Notably, Saddam was seriously considered mentally ill by many in the US, which helped Americans view him (and his people) as less than human.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#155

Post by tptacek » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:02 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #142

shabaan wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to comment how biased this view is. Yes the president is religious and cares about islam, his religion. - Turkey gdp has increased unparalleled in the whole of europe under Erdogan. - Erdogan has resettled 2.2 million syrian refugees in new cities (much more than whole of europe combined) with monthly food and money .. although 2.3 million are yet to settle. - He was elected with 60% votes and current st…

This is a superb point. Americans are so quick to rally against any foreign leader that is sympathetic to Islam. In the US we've had decades of anti-Islamic propaganda, since it has helped sell various war efforts. All countries have some internal forces of pluralism and some internal voices of absolutism, for a variety of contemporary and historical reasons, and all citizens have the ability to consent and to dissen…

You don't even have to support an Islamist Turkey to have problems with military coups. I think Erdogan is highly problematic and that the direction Turkey is taking will materially harm a generation of its people. But even that is a better outcome than a military coup!

I don't like Islamist governments (any more than I'd like a Christian Fundamentalist government here --- "Christian", by the way, being a word that could fairly be applied to me), but I too get the strong sense that the only factor being weighed by supporters of the coup on this thread, whether they're well-informed enough to invoke Ataturk or not, is "Islamism bad, anything else good". No.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#156

Post by vintermann » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:04 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #132

vintermann wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…

No existing democracies are pure democracies, in the sense that the have non-democratic elements, often enshrined in a constitution, that constrain the government. In the US, unelected judges with lifetime appointments strike down laws passed democratically, in accordance with a constitution that none of us alive had any input in writing. We've all gotten used to that idea, but it was extremely controversial when it…

I am very much against the thing you describe, whether they call themselves supreme courts or guardian councils or defenders of the constitution. Yes, I am a radical democrat. I think the safeguards supposedly provided by such institutions are largely illusionary.

All sorts of minorities, for instance, may be protected in flowery words, but it isn't worth the paper it's written on unless the majority (of power, sadly, not of individuals) actually care about it. A constitutional safeguard that doesn't have the support of actual power is worked around, it's just a question of lawyer rhetoric. In the end, the only check that can exist on us is ourselves.

That said, at least supreme court judges in the US (and other countries) don't have the power to topple the government, execute ministers, outlaw political parties etc. That's one way the military providing "a check on democracy" is even worse.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#157

Post by afsina » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:05 PM UTC

01923810391 wrote: post #147

afsina wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much drama? - PKK is killing your soldiers what do you do? This has nothing to do with IS. - Ok, he has a temper and does not have a good sense of humor but please, did you find "that" poem funny? - Oh come on. You know it was not about being bad judges. Though yes, reintroduction of death penalty is a very bad idea. Also things are being done too hastily. All allegations are need to be verified.

That poem was not meant to be funny, it was a reaction to an earlier attempt by Erdogan to complain about another "insult". The poem was just saying "THIS is what an actual insult looks like". In light of the recent events though it appears that goats have been insulted in the poem, not Erdogan.

Oh you are insulting peoples intelligence here. Playing with words like that does not make it less stupid.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#158

Post by mustaflex » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:07 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

The coup has been orchestrated by the gulenist,a religous sect infiltrated inside the army. No one in Turkey need to hear Erdogan say it to believe it. For 12 years the secular/kemalists warn the government to stop supporting them.

If western powers were so concerned about democracy in Turkey, they should've talked much sooner, when Ergodan and gulen were throwing thousands of kemalist from all of Turkey's instituations since 2007 with ridiculous accusations.

They started to raise concerns only when Erdogan turned his attention from the kemalist to his former allied gulen.

The sentiment that America and gulen are behind the coup didn't happen in 1 day, its started WAY BEFORE(for 12 years). And the first to believe it are the kemalists themselves because they were the first victims of Gulen and his followers.

And please stop with this Islamic propaganda, there is no way that Sharia is coming in Turkey. This is just wishful thinking. Yes Erdogan is a authocratic fuck, and he will do anything in his power to muster more, but everyone in Turkey right know is focused on the gulenist right now.

Anti-American sentiment is at an all time high and it is this time from every factions of the population.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#159

Post by hx87 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:08 PM UTC

joesmo wrote: post #115

secfirstmd wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very pro-American in general but dislike the "American values" statement. Which values are they? Freedom, Rule of Law and Democracy? or torture in Guantanamo, invasion of Iraq based on complete BS reasons resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians, support of the Saudi Regime, thousands of citizens dieing from stupid gun laws, probable genocide of the original Native American population, Agent…

If the world was an action movie, America would definitely be one of the big bad guys in it. It's time for Americans to realize they are not the good guys in this story, that they haven't been the good guys since the 1940's, and that the only idiots that think Americans are the good guys in this hypothetical movie are stupid, ignorant Americans. The rest of us Americans are disgusted at what is and has happened in ou…

If the world was an action movie, there would be no heroes, period.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#160

Post by argonaut » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:08 PM UTC

acjohnson55 wrote: post #139

bovermyer wrote: post #29

Turkey is strategically valuable enough that I doubt much is going to change on a macro scale. Both sides will be cranky at each other for awhile, deals will be made, and everything will more or less go back to "normal." It's like how no one is willing to take care of the North Korea problem because leaving it alone is less of a headache than the alternative.

What would taking care of the North Korea problem look like? Land invasion? We did that; it ended in a stalemate, and the circumstances of that result haven't really changed. Turkey should be concerned about whether its strategic value still exists as such. We could probably live without them in the post-Soviet world. They are certainly extremely useful to have in the fold, but Erdoğan should take care not to assume…

Errr... The US was fighting China in the Korean War. And the US military was not yet the undisputed global military superpower it is today.

A land invasion of North Korea would almost certainly be successful, the casualties and cost is the unacceptable part.