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Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

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Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's generally the nature of massive reform. It had to be done and there were political costs associated with it, but it was worth it from a net cost and health outcomes perspective. Desegregation was pretty unpopular as well, are you saying that shouldn't have happened either?

You're comparing desegregation to the ACA? I'm pretty sure most Democrats are unhappy with the ACA.

Care to cite that source? Is this in recent memory or a poll done at the height of ad campaigns being run trying to assuage folks one way or the other?

To help you out, here's what the latest June 2016 polling says about Democrats and that ACA: "16 percent of Democrats report an unfavorable opinion, down from 25 percent in April." (http://kff.org/global-health-policy/poll-finding/kaiser-heal...)

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#192

The Stagnation Hypothesis basically explains all of this. I would like to remind you that earnings, prices in general are phenomenon which relate back to the real world in some way. That is to say they must be side affects of something else. The cartoon series The Venture Bros symbolizes the Stagnation Hypothesis. If you don't want to watch the entire series to understand the point, just take a look at the episode: S…

> That utterly fails to explain why new innovations aren't reaching the common person. Because you can't innovate more land out of nothing. People need someplace to live and until they don't, land will continue to be the most constrained and contested "wealth" unit.

I agree the land issue (rent seeking really) is an important factor in explaining stagnation (because of the opportunity cost of tying up dead capital into illiquid assets) but I suspect it too is a side affect.

The majority of constraints on land use appear to be artificial such as corruption/NIMBYism/regulatory.

Why though, have those constraints come into existence? They didn't always exist. In my country getting official approval from the government in order to construct a house only came in the 80s, long after one might make complaint about factories belching smoke in the wrong area and other such externalities.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#193

The Stagnation Hypothesis basically explains all of this. I would like to remind you that earnings, prices in general are phenomenon which relate back to the real world in some way. That is to say they must be side affects of something else. The cartoon series The Venture Bros symbolizes the Stagnation Hypothesis. If you don't want to watch the entire series to understand the point, just take a look at the episode: S…

That is, to put it most softly, a load of bullshit. The cutting edge of science and technology is every bit as innovative, hell perhaps more innovative than anything happening in the 70s. I love how every one of your statement is predicated by "excluding computers, the internet, etc". That's like saying "aside from that whole steam power thing the industrial revolution was no big deal" We have rockets that can land a…

> That is, to put it most softly, a load of bullshit.

I would have said the same thing a few years ago. I would have said it was preposterously stupid. Then I changed my mind when I saw the map must be fitting the map of some territory other than ours. Keep an open mind if you can.

Incidentally some version of the Stagnation Hypothesis is believed by Peter Thiel, Larry Page and Elon Musk. So I am in terrific company. Many of their projects are motivated by a belief in the Stagnation Hypothesis.

> The cutting edge of science and technology is every bit as innovative, hell perhaps more innovative than anything happening in the 70s.

That isn't even true in software development. I don't think that is even controversial on HN. And now that Moore's Law has almost completed its journey in hardware it appears that for the first time ever laptops are coming out that are slower than the previous iteration (I don't have one myself but I think that's the Macbook Air and due to battery size).

I'm not saying there's no innovation any longer in computer science generally. The opposite is so. However in the present and near future we're going to be retrenching a good bit (making FPGAs for routine junk, making algorithms more efficient since hardware is no longer quite picking up the slack, and lest we forget, you can't yet parallelize everything just because the capacity exists, that's a key unsolved problem).

> I love how every one of your statement is predicated by "excluding computers, the internet, etc". That's like saying "aside from that whole steam power thing the industrial revolution was no big deal"

I do appreciate the significance of computation or I would not be here.

I'm saying it is not enough by itself. Example; can Silicon Valley give us 12% GDP next year? I don't think so. But historically during the industrial revolution we did get splendid growth rates like that (and much higher) because of technological development.

> We have rockets that can land autonomously,

Elon Musk's project. A believer in the Stagnation Hypothesis who did it precisely because he believes in it. Same goes for his car, energy and transport projects. He is doing them because nobody else is doing them. Half a century since the moon landings anyone? Or did we not want those asteroids mined and moon hotels? Half a century is a long time before we return to the first stage of space economic development.

I have a chart in my office of the necessary stages to make space economy prosper, and we're just getting back to 1983 with Elon Musk's reusable rocket project.

Take a look at it. Google "Integrated Space Plan" by Rockwell International and Ronald M. Jones.

There was a plan. It was taken deadly seriously. And it did fail.

> stunningly high energy density batteries that have ushered a revolution in portable electronics

This does not impress me. Li-ion has already reached diminishing returns.

Battery technology overall is supremely unimpressive despite a century of people banging away at it.

The one thing that would be really impressive is a secure containment for a nuclear battery. That would enable a battery life of thousands of years. That my friend, is impressive.

Also impressive was Velkess's physical house battery using a flexible lasso-like flywheel. It was for houses and it would give you 15kwh at first prototype for 6.5k. The impressive part was the expected lifecycle would, if the prototype had been iterated, of a half century. Naturally they are bankrupt because nobody in Silicon Valley had the balls to back Bill Grey's genuinely innovative idea.

So far chemical batteries seem like a bust to me. It's all fancy press releases and no ultimate results applicable to any market.

That incidentally is the shared characteristic of the majority of so-called technology you hear about in the media.

Lots of press releases. No available tech. That's because it either does not work or it is too dangerous. There is astounding little effective technology reaching market.

> god damn electric planes at prototype stage

Believe it when I see it.

>carbon fiber solar panels pushing 35% efficiency,

I admit that is impressive. It's one of the exceptions to the "ex-compuation rule".

> network of satellites that can pinpoint you on the meter level an connection to said network so cheap it's a basic addon to consumer hardware,

Computation. And old too.

>technology to fab transistors at 14 fucking nanometers (a feat thought to be impossible in your golden age of innovation).

Computation. We agreed this was the bright oasis in the sand ocean of stagnation.

> You mention household energy bills, ignoring the efficiencies gained by vastly more efficient electronics, better available windows, insulation and = hot water heating

First ask yourself why we are investing in insulation when we didn't pre-70s.

It is because even with the recent bottoming out of the oil price, it is still much higher than the highest point (in real) it was during the OPEC crisis.

Insulation is a thing because high energy prices are a thing.

Great insulation (like the one I mentioned) would be a boon. But as Thiel says, any growth generated by the computer revolution has basically been cancelled out by the terrific rise in energy prices.

Secondly, it is true that electronics have improved in efficiency energy usage-wise. However the consumption rate has overall gone up as their capacities have expanded. Look at old power supplies and new ones, and this should be perfectly clear despite the gains you mention.

Electronics aren't important though. The majority electricity cost is heating, then mechanical, lastly electronic. They've developed more efficient water heaters and so on but it just doesn't compensate enough for the rise in energy prices.

Real game changers are things like rolling out Gen-5 nuclear fission stations or nuclear fusion. There has definitely been a stagnation in this form of energy production for political reasons. Tell me if you want to see some bleak charts illustrating the point and I'll find where I put them.

This is not just another technology. It is a keystone technology. The source of many other potential routes to economic prosperity. The direct route. It's the same with using genetics in biology to accomplish artificial breeding. Guess what, they're both defacto banned or literally banned (both are outright banned in my country) in many places.

You might want to pause and think about that. All is not roses.

> And you have the fucking gall to suggest innovation is slowing down.

Ex-Computation. I have the gall because it is a reasonable conclusion to reach. It's just not emphasized by the media, companies or governments because it is not sexy and would be considered unhelpful. Nevertheless, it is there. The Stagnation that is.

That's why wages haven't risen for decades. Enjoy your delightful LED lamp and the ability to change the hue of your lights.

> The best part about it all, is to the public these innovations come so fast and hard that it's all "no big deal".

I think you're going to change your mind on this. Try reading newsprint from the previous few decades. Same crap different decade. Somehow the innovations (ex-computation and a very small number of bright spots like solar/fracking) don't quite seem to reach the public. In most cases it is because they do not exist. They don't exist in university labs. They don't exist in company labs. Ignore the press releases and look for evidence of substance.

Here's an interesting titbit. Have you heard of Eroom's law? Despite the exponentially declining costs in genome sequencing and x-ray crystallography (their major tools) there exists exponentially declining effectiveness in coming up with new working drugs.

I repeat: exponentially declining effectiveness. And we can't even digitize medical records properly to date albeit that's political again.

I'd tell you more weird facts you'd hardly believe that are true but I think you've had enough for today.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#194
post #100

Might want to consider the increasing drain on the economy that the government takes. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1900_2020... One way or another, it comes out of our pocketses.

Considering that the U.S. economy has been a long term bull run since 1900, it seems increased government spending actually help economic growth. But anyway, the percentage of government spending on GDP has been stabilized in the last 30 years.

It's been in a bull run since 1800.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#195
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a technology standpoint, there was a real break around 1995 or so. It's not so much the consumer tech itself. Oh, it's incrementally advanced in a lot of ways but a 2016 laptop, for example, would be clearly recognizable as such to someone in 1995. A smartphone less so but it would have existing analogs in devices like the Palm Pilot. What would be vastly sea-change-levels different is the pervasiveness of conne…

The first Palm Pilot was released in late 1997. it would've been a really, really big deal to have one in 1995. Laptops would've been recognizable, but their utility was severely limited without WiFi, which I think was arguably a bigger transition (wired Internet -> wireless) than BBS -> Internet. So I guess I'm agreeing with you, connectivity was the big phase change!

I didn't realize they were quite so late. That said, the "1995" transition date was probably more like 1998 or so. WiFi connectivity was still in its infancy at the turn of the century and the availability of meaningful amounts of online content and services was only a few years ahead of that.

Laptops were somewhat useful even prior to WiFi. I had my first one in 1997 or so. It was convenient to take work home, for example. But you're right that, viewed through the lens of today, they weren't a huge win relative to wired desktops for many uses.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly man. I'm a small business owner. I pay a hell of alot in income taxes. I have invested money. The thing is - we all use our resources in this country. We all use the roads, the land, the water, the minerals, and every other item out there. My company probably uses more than the average person. It should be taxed at least equally - if not more as a result. I have a bunch of people that drive all over the place.…

Roads roads roads. It's always roads that people bring up when defending socialism. Look up how much our roads cost to maintain and compare it to our entitlements spending and you'll get a better understanding of what socialism looks like. There's not a capitalist alive who isn't comfortable paying taxes for roads.

Ok then, what about the health of your consumers (not just medically)? Is the community at large not an asset we all tap in to every day? People have noticed that there is a growing portion of that asset that can't contribute as well as they could. Namely because of difficulties acquiring education, healthcare and financial security.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing desegregation to the ACA? I'm pretty sure most Democrats are unhappy with the ACA.

Care to cite that source? Is this in recent memory or a poll done at the height of ad campaigns being run trying to assuage folks one way or the other? To help you out, here's what the latest June 2016 polling says about Democrats and that ACA: "16 percent of Democrats report an unfavorable opinion, down from 25 percent in April." ( http://kff.org/global-health-policy/poll-finding/kaiser-heal... )

I guess what I mean is, when compared to a single-payer system, most Democrats were unhappy with the ACA. I'd be wary of believing any polls about the ACA in general because Democrats likely feel a duty to support it in the face of criticism from Republicans. A much more informative poll would be asking Democrats whether they would have preferred a single-payer system.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#198
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roads roads roads. It's always roads that people bring up when defending socialism. Look up how much our roads cost to maintain and compare it to our entitlements spending and you'll get a better understanding of what socialism looks like. There's not a capitalist alive who isn't comfortable paying taxes for roads.

Ok then, what about the health of your consumers (not just medically)? Is the community at large not an asset we all tap in to every day? People have noticed that there is a growing portion of that asset that can't contribute as well as they could. Namely because of difficulties acquiring education, healthcare and financial security.

That's where things get very fuzzy. It's easy to link tax dollars to roads because the road is either there, and well maintained, or it is not. In order to make the argument that businesses get more from their dollars by giving it to the government to improve the "health" of the workforce than they would investing it how they see fit, you need to be able to measure it, and that's not an easy thing to do. If it were obvious, like taxes for roads, you'd get little argument from businesses over taxes. The problem is, it's not obvious nor easy to prove.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#199
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok then, what about the health of your consumers (not just medically)? Is the community at large not an asset we all tap in to every day? People have noticed that there is a growing portion of that asset that can't contribute as well as they could. Namely because of difficulties acquiring education, healthcare and financial security.

That's where things get very fuzzy. It's easy to link tax dollars to roads because the road is either there, and well maintained, or it is not. In order to make the argument that businesses get more from their dollars by giving it to the government to improve the "health" of the workforce than they would investing it how they see fit, you need to be able to measure it, and that's not an easy thing to do. If it were o…

Absolutely, it's hard to prove. Maybe the answer isn't in government, it just seems like a silly thing to leave to the invisible hand of capitalism, seeing as that exact reasoning appears to have brought us here.

Why not cultivate your crop, you know?

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#200

There are mitigating strategies that we can use to our advantage. Rejecting car & home ownership culture, enforcing various frugal lifestyle patterns (cook and eat home, body weight exercise), cheap travel (couchsurfing/airbnb), geoarbitraging income can do wonders on a personal level. There are several changes on the horizon that could cause interesting ripples soon - for example, what happens when mobile solar powe…

It's very hard for me to envision a future I want to save for where I'm not the owner of a house - of my own space. That said, I imagine subscription car usage will be a shift that happens over a generation or two...
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