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Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

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Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's three-fourths of Millennials themselves who believe that, so it's not just the perception of other generations.

Sure, but is that metric useful? Wouldn't hours worked, vacation taken, etc. be more useful? And even then, you'd have to adjust for under-employment and precarity, don't you think? I just don't see a self-perception survey like this as very useful in determining the actual working habits of generations.

Sure, that would be nice to know, but I haven't seen such data.

Edit: I looked it up and found this "gen X and especially the millennials were much more likely to say they wanted a job with more vacation – that was more flexible." (http://www.apa.org/research/action/speaking-of-psychology/un...)

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#122
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an X-er watching the millenials and the boomers lobbing grenades at each other, it amuses me that the millenial argument sounds like this: "Those greedy boomers have fucked up the world for everyone else with their overly lavish and unsustainable lifestyles... and they won't let us into their cushy club!" Point of fact is that if you were to give the choice between today's 20-year-old lifestyle and the same in 197…

First that first paragraph is a Straw man argument. So I will ignore. Your other point is they if A gets better it is ok if B gets worse. I think lack of affordability of essentials like somewhere to live is of grave concern. Unaffordable housing causes homelessness. It means people have to start families later and have less time to raise their children.

My first paragraph wasn't meant to be a summation of yours, sorry, it's just that your statement reminded me of the last part of it. It's just odd that the criticisms of the boomers includes both "they're being unsustainable" and "they won't let us be unsustainable wtih them".

As for starting families later, that happens with wealthy, stable societies. People were starting to have children later well before housing costs j-curved. Family sizes have reduced as well - plenty of western democracies are now below replacement birthrate.

In short, the problem is this: housing costs are a problem. Bitching about the boomers is going to help no-one, especially the millenials. Rather than spend that energy creating division, find forward-thinking solutions. Instead of being bitter about the one problem that generation has, be happy that things like job quality has improved[1] (yes, for the slightly lower amount of jobs per worker these days), education is more available[2], society is less discriminatory, food supply is of better quality, entertainment is more easily accessed, travel is much easier, so on and so forth.

Hence why I say that focusing only on house + uni price is just propaganda.

[1] Those jobs that immigrants do in modern western societies, the ones that the natives don't do because they're too menial? Those were the jobs that the young boomers and earlier had to do.

[2] Uni courses are more expensive, but there's a ton of education out there that isn't in the form of a four-year degree, and that's independent of the amazing resources available on the internet.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly. But I think it moreso indicates that two party systems are actually multiparty systems without any of the benefits of multiple parties. The various factions operate within their party. The Republicans have the same issue, but they're less pronounced.

I would say the republicans have even more factional problems than the democrats...tea party and trump, moderates, Cristian coalition, etc..! But since they don't control the White House, they are at least unified in there Obama hate, which is mostly how they are perceived.

You're right, the factional problems of the Republicans are huge this time around. But they weren't so much in 2008.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but is that metric useful? Wouldn't hours worked, vacation taken, etc. be more useful? And even then, you'd have to adjust for under-employment and precarity, don't you think? I just don't see a self-perception survey like this as very useful in determining the actual working habits of generations.

Sure, that would be nice to know, but I haven't seen such data. Edit: I looked it up and found this "gen X and especially the millennials were much more likely to say they wanted a job with more vacation – that was more flexible." ( http://www.apa.org/research/action/speaking-of-psychology/un... )

That doesn't really help without a baseline. If the boomers averaged x hours of vacation time, and millennials are average x/2, then wanting more doesn't speak to a lack of work ethic.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#125

Should be "get paid less". We really need to end the framing of whatever people are paid as assuming that it's equal to what they earn (as in what they actually deserve given actual work value etc)

What someone gets paid has to be, overall, less than what they earn, overall. Otherwise it'd be uneconomical for their employer.

Not sure what you mean by "overall," but isn't this trivially contradicted?

Salesman A sells $100 of product @ 40% margin, bringing in $40 of "profit," and is paid $20.

Salesman B sells $100 of product @ 40% margin, bringing in $40 of "profit," and is paid $41.

The owner is up $20 from Salesman A, and down $1 from Salesman B, and can merrily continue overpaying Salesman B.

"But no owner would do that because it's obvious that this is ridiculous." Certainly. But replace "Salesman A" with "QA Lead," and "Salesman B" with "Director of HR," and who knows who's contributing how much?

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#126
post #79

Might want to consider the increasing drain on the economy that the government takes. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1900_2020... One way or another, it comes out of our pocketses.

1. The article is about the UK. 2. Your link is biased. Here's a longer term more accurate graph. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYONGDA188S 3. Looking at the historical data there's nothing obvious that would distinguish genX vs genY except maybe kids graduating right after the 2008 recession which isn't normally attributed to government spending. Pre-recession government spending was around 18% which is in the…

The link I presented was aggregate government spending, it was not restricted to federal spending.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that would be nice to know, but I haven't seen such data. Edit: I looked it up and found this "gen X and especially the millennials were much more likely to say they wanted a job with more vacation – that was more flexible." ( http://www.apa.org/research/action/speaking-of-psychology/un... )

That doesn't really help without a baseline. If the boomers averaged x hours of vacation time, and millennials are average x/2 , then wanting more doesn't speak to a lack of work ethic.

The researcher states that they compared people in these generations when they were at the same age, so I would think the absolute values were used.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#128
post #76
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'm still not clear on how taxing the shit out of everyday working citizens somehow redistributes the wealth which is already hoarded by the 0.1%.

I've realized it's pretty much pointless, and here's why. There's a bunch of people who don't really pay taxes and don't understand how wealth and taxes work. But they have to file a 1040 every year, so when you talk about taxes they think "income taxes". If you mention "capital gains", mostly their eyes just rollover because they can't conceptualize even what you are talking about. They just don't understand they ar…

Hardly man. I'm a small business owner. I pay a hell of alot in income taxes. I have invested money.

The thing is - we all use our resources in this country. We all use the roads, the land, the water, the minerals, and every other item out there. My company probably uses more than the average person. It should be taxed at least equally - if not more as a result.

I have a bunch of people that drive all over the place. They write on paper. Many miles of roads are used slightly because of them. Paper is produced for them to write on. My grandma has never drove a day in her life - and at 95 still walks everywhere she needs to.

She makes pennies on the thousand dollar compared to me. Taxes provide infrastructure and resources. The poor are overly taxed.

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#129
post #50
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence that increased government spending harms economic growth? It seems like an a priori certainty in right wing thought, but what evidence I've seen suggests that the effect is minimal or even beneficial (within the spending ranges that we see in modern developed nations).

I recall this is a well-known fact from introductory macroeconomics

[deleted]

Re: Millennials 'set to earn less than Generation X'

#130
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stagnating wages, rapidly increasing house prices, bad terms for renters, increasing university costs. If I were 20 I'd consider working remote and just go live in a much cheaper country. You could get a boomer lifestyle yet!

As an X-er watching the millenials and the boomers lobbing grenades at each other, it amuses me that the millenial argument sounds like this: "Those greedy boomers have fucked up the world for everyone else with their overly lavish and unsustainable lifestyles... and they won't let us into their cushy club!" Point of fact is that if you were to give the choice between today's 20-year-old lifestyle and the same in 197…

The factual errors in your argument are extreme.

Working class wages were proportionately higher in 1970. Drawing a dividing line is hard, but somewhere between 1970 and 1980, wage gains became decoupled from productivity increases.

Medicine quite simply hasn't advanced significantly since 1970. Access to medicine by the underserved has, and accounts for much of increases in outcomes, as well as reduced environmental polutants and healthier lifestyles: clean air, clean water, unleaded petrol, lead-free paint, reduced smoking, and reduced alcohol consumption.

"Lifestyle" shopping was only just being invented at about this time -- shopping as recreation largley didn't exist. "Amazon" was called "Sears, Roebuck", you could buy a house, or a bed, or a wardrobe, with a 100% satisfaction guarantee.

Communications and entertainment are about the only area with significant improement, though I'd argue the quality of news coverage 1970 - 1980 was far higher than today -- most cities had multiple local papers with detailed coverage, and newsmagazines weren't the joke they are today. Television was more limited and video didn't exist, but movie theaters were much more common (and cheaper), and live performances easier to find. There was also a form of entertainment and information called "books", freely available in these terminal service devices called "libraries".

You've failed to account for decreased labour union participation (stronger job security), general life and housing security, highly subsidised educational opportunities, the burgeoning of opportunities resulting from the 1950s and 1960s Civil Rights movement, the long boom in opportunity in California (offsetting the decline of the rust belt), affordable air conditioning making life in the southeast comfortable for the first time, and the fact that in 1970, the advances of the next 30 years were rapidly approaching. I (and others) see the information revolution as largely played out -- its peak period seemed to be ~1995 - 2005.

Sources: varied, though Robert Gordon's The Rise and Fall of American Growth covers much of the changes in lifestyle, transport, health, communications, and work, from 1870 - 2015. It's especially damning on info/comms technologies excepting 1995-2005, and healthcare since 1970. Thomas Piketty's Capital in the 21st Century is one of many books addressing the rise in inequality, see also Anthony Atkinson's Inequality.

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