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Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

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Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#61

Post by Hydraulix989 »

Domenic_S wrote: post #57
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. As someone currently entrenched in the Bay Area, my advice is to stay in Texas -- especially if you have dreams of owning a house someday. Here, that prospect is nil unless you win the equity lottery at some startup, but gambling in serial with your career makes this REALLY hard to pull off. A six-figure salary in the Bay Area dooms you to renting for the rest of your life, and the rental situation here, with i…

Well, let's clarify that by saying "if you want to own a house somewhere cool", because it's totally possible to buy a place on $120k. But it's going to be a condo, and in the far east/north bay if you work in SF (Pleasant Hill/Santa Rosa or further) or far south bay if you're in SV (morgan hill or gilroy).

I looked and saw million dollar houses as far as an hour's drive away from SV.

You mentioned Gilroy, the price situation (800k, 4M, 1M, 1M, 600k are the first 5 results) doesn't even look much better than in SF proper:

http://www.zillow.com/gilroy-ca/

Moreover, they don't really have condos in Gilroy.

Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#62

Post by jsprogrammer »

cm3 wrote: post #32

> I sought advice from two of my best friends/coworkers. Unless you trust them absolutely, it's a risky idea to talk to coworkers about your interviews somewhere else. If your coworkers are already talking about their interviews with you, then it's fine. I mean, there are some very weird companies out there where the managers get so upset at the idea that you might look somewhere else on your own initiative that it's…

Doing this results in the company and HR having an inaccurate view of the organization. How long can a company last when employees don't make frustrations known and instead put on a happy face for display?

Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#63

Post by chrisabrams »

beachstartup wrote: post #55
badmadrad wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did tell them what I make but I didn't tell them what would make me leave because it usually goes without saying... more money.

right, so exactly as i suspected, you didn't tell them how much you want to make. and no, it doesn't go without saying. you need to say it. tell them your requirements. do it without them asking. what if you wanted to buy a car, but the dealer wouldn't tell you the price? what would you do? offer them MORE than what you think the car is worth?

Yes you are correct. Because sometimes companies think its the project, or the location, or the weather, or who knows what. But if its the money, then you gotta say so.

Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#64

Post by badmadrad »

beachstartup wrote: post #55
badmadrad wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did tell them what I make but I didn't tell them what would make me leave because it usually goes without saying... more money.

right, so exactly as i suspected, you didn't tell them how much you want to make. and no, it doesn't go without saying. you need to say it. tell them your requirements. do it without them asking. what if you wanted to buy a car, but the dealer wouldn't tell you the price? what would you do? offer them MORE than what you think the car is worth?

I actually see it a bit differently than buying a car. To me it's more like an auction where the person only has to actually sell the item if they are pleased with the final price. So if the price starts at $100 dollars and you bid $95 that person will probably not give you the item and wait for a better deal or at the very least sell at cost. That being said, I certainly could have been more assertive and said I will only move if you pay me X amount but then you run the risk of not getting the best offer they can provide because you have given them number. At the end of the day after the company low balled me, I told them I would need more money than that and they wouldn't budge so even so it was still a waste of energy.

Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#65

Post by byoung2 »

tomreece wrote: post #21
chrisabrams wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur - it's like the author never even attempted to get a cost of living adjustment in the offer.

The offer was 20k more than my base salary already. Asking for even more seemed crazy to me. I have controversial opinions on how much money developers make already, probably stemming from my imposter syndrome. Asking for more money did not make me comfortable. If they had offered, I would have had to reconsider. I expected more of a conversation after I declined, but it didn't happen.

I used to be a pushover in negotiations too. That's how I ended up making $55k when I later found out my coworkers were making $80k. So I applied and interviewed just to get practice with salary negotiating. After a week of trying I got an offer for $60k and I asked for $80 and we settled on $70. A week after being disappointed that I was making $55k while my coworkers made $80, I had a $15k increase. 3 months after that I switched companies and got another $10k increase. A year after that I switched companies again and got another $30k increase. Through negotiation, I doubled my salary from $55k to $110k in 15 months. It was uncomfortable at times, especially with counter offers and threatening to quit, but it's just business, and the other side of the table isn't losing any sleep over trying to lowball you.

Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#66

Post by Domenic_S »

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #61
Domenic_S wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's clarify that by saying "if you want to own a house somewhere cool", because it's totally possible to buy a place on $120k. But it's going to be a condo, and in the far east/north bay if you work in SF (Pleasant Hill/Santa Rosa or further) or far south bay if you're in SV (morgan hill or gilroy).

I looked and saw million dollar houses as far as an hour's drive away from SV. You mentioned Gilroy, the price situation (800k, 4M, 1M, 1M, 600k are the first 5 results) doesn't even look much better than in SF proper: http://www.zillow.com/gilroy-ca/ Moreover, they don't really have condos in Gilroy.

See, it's this kind of negativity that gets people depressed about housing.

Detached house (needs work) $359k https://www.redfin.com/CA/Gilroy/7270-Alexander-St-95020/hom...

Condo in Morgan Hill @ $446k: https://www.redfin.com/CA/Morgan-Hill/112-La-Crosse-Dr-95037...

Detached 3/2 SFH @ $500k https://www.redfin.com/CA/Gilroy/374-Walnut-Ln-95020/home/10...

Nice townhouse @ $495k: https://www.redfin.com/CA/GILROY/7664-GENNARO-WAY-9502/home/...

Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#67

Post by logfromblammo »

cdibona wrote: post #26
GeneralMayhem wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What company couldn't be bothered to put an offer on paper until three days before you were supposed to start, and then had the gall to be upset? Please name and shame, that's completely unacceptable.

Who accepts an offer and schedules their first day of work without knowing what they will be paid? No one, that's who...

Welcome to the world of "at will" mercenaries.

I was once offered a job with a start date two weeks in the future, and then I got a call the day before I was set to start which told me I ought not bother showing up the next day, because the position had been cancelled. The job was with American Family Insurance, and instead of starting that new job, I instead called my agent to cancel all my policies with them.

So now, I have no reservations whatsoever about accepting a [non-contract] offer and making an appointment to show up for a new job, then continuing to interview right up to my new start date, or even a little while after. If I cancel the day before, the company should simply be glad that I didn't work one day then quit, because then they would have to process payroll and tax forms for the whole year.

Scheduling the first day costs me nothing. That's just a deadline for the company to put their written promise of payment for my labor into my hands. If it doesn't show up, neither do I. The company would then receive a call, and I would say that I was unable to start work because I didn't have a signed offer letter. If I get a better offer in the interim, I might accept it, and let the first company know they were outbid.

So far, I have only ever skipped a "start work" appointment with Deluxe, and I decided not to show up for work because their recruiter lied to me multiple times, and processed me in to a job description radically different from the one I had been seeking.

If you want assurance that I will show up after accepting an offer, give me an actual contract. An "at will" offer letter just says that if I work for you, you will pay me $X, N times per year.

Do not fear interviewing while employed. Do not fear it if you are "at will". Do not fear it if you are under contract. The company is not going to sacrifice a single penny of its profits for your personal welfare, so you have to see to your own financial security. You always have to assume that the contract will not be renewed or extended, or that the next all hands meeting will be to fire everyone. Therefore, you owe it to yourself to seek alternate employment at any time, and accept or reject offers in the spirit in which they were given. An "at will" offer could be for any number of days from zero until your retirement target, and that level of uncertain commitment from your employer is not sufficient by itself to generate any level of certain commitment from you.

You don't have to put bait on your hook, but your line should always be in the water. And if you catch a fish, you can always throw it back rather than eat it.

Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#68

Post by [deleted] »

jsprogrammer wrote: post #62
cm3 wrote: post #32

> I sought advice from two of my best friends/coworkers. Unless you trust them absolutely, it's a risky idea to talk to coworkers about your interviews somewhere else. If your coworkers are already talking about their interviews with you, then it's fine. I mean, there are some very weird companies out there where the managers get so upset at the idea that you might look somewhere else on your own initiative that it's…

Doing this results in the company and HR having an inaccurate view of the organization. How long can a company last when employees don't make frustrations known and instead put on a happy face for display?

[deleted]

Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#69

Post by dspillett »

pmyjavec wrote: post #37
dspillett wrote: post #9

> felt guilty enough for turning it down after they had spent time and money on me In these cases you should never feel guilty about the time and other resource they spent on the process. If they hadn't made you an offer in the end they certainly wouldn't have felt guilty about the time/money/other you had spent.

Very good point, I've spent almost 40 hours of my time for an application only to be told at the final stages I wasn't right for the position. I doubt anyone on the other side lost sleep over it.

Exactly. It is part of the process that both parties need to accept. If the outlay/risk is too high for the company then it is not the candidate's fault, the candidate does not dictate the interview process.

Re: Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed

#70

Post by dudul »

jsprogrammer wrote: post #62
cm3 wrote: post #32

> I sought advice from two of my best friends/coworkers. Unless you trust them absolutely, it's a risky idea to talk to coworkers about your interviews somewhere else. If your coworkers are already talking about their interviews with you, then it's fine. I mean, there are some very weird companies out there where the managers get so upset at the idea that you might look somewhere else on your own initiative that it's…

Doing this results in the company and HR having an inaccurate view of the organization. How long can a company last when employees don't make frustrations known and instead put on a happy face for display?

You can voice your frustrations and offer ways to improve the organization without volunteering the information that you are interviewing.

When it comes to interviews and dealing with my current employer, I have 2 rules: never tell that you are trying to leave, and never accept the counter offer when you give your notice.

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