Earlier quoted context omitted.
Lack of a functional democracy is the problem, not socialism.
The government was elected with overwhelming support.
Being elected and actually governing in a functional manner are two different things.
My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
221–230 of 276 posts
Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a hell of a big difference between an inadvertent result of ill-considered agricultural practices and a deliberate campaign of genocide by starvation.
If there was a "deliberate campaign of genocide by starvation" happening, I'm sure I could look in the New York Times archives of the period and read about that. If I consult the archives, the reporters going through the Ukraine said reports of that were false. Also, all of Europe had a bad crop that year, I guess the Soviets were controlling the weather?
There's a lot of hyperbole on both sides here. The Soviets at the time claimed Americans were starving by the millions, and of course Americans claimed the Soviets were starving by the millions.
Of course this is a point too subtle to work on Hacker News.
The data on both sides is wobbly to the point of being undependable. Until modern social security systems kicked in the number of people living in the US was largely a hypothetical quantity, especially in far-flung rural areas, the very sort of which were impacted by the Dust Bowl.
The 1930 census https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_United_States_Census seems to be fairly comprehensive, but you have to wonder how far into the wilderness these people were willing to go to tabulate who was living in the extreme edges of the American frontier.
Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
All of which goes to show that a novel can be highly influential and immensely successful albeit that it's badly written, incoherent, very long and subject to scathing critiques as in: "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotion…
That's not a scathing critique, it's a joke. It resonates well with people who already dislike Atlas Shrugged (including myself), but it doesn't convince anyone. Those who like Atlas Shrugged will read it, maybe laugh, then correctly point out that it's not a well-reasoned argument, it's a joke.
True enough. Plenty of legitimate criticisms are available... The main character is apparently great though she built nothing; her father did all the work. The complete discounting of the workers who do the actual laying of rails and running of trains. Galt steals IP that rightfully belongs to his employer (and was developed with his employer's resources). The fact that they'd all die of starvation or be reduced to subsistence farmers in Galt's Gulch.
The book is a hilarious caricature of reality.
Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
#224Actually, this somehow reminds me of my childhood here in ex-USSR.
No groceries (deficit on everything worth buying), no money to by anything in reasonable quantities, extreme inflation, state-issued coupons for different amounts of items (you still had to pay for them, these were used for rationing).
We were large family, so we got a right to stand for a few hours in line every few weeks at a distant shop where families with four or more children could shop for items not available elsewhere.
Crime rates were through the roof, but not kidnappings. Muggings, burglaries, extortion, plain and simple beating up because you looked the wrong way. These were the days when gangs started forming, so old rules (stand up and fight even if you'll lose) did not work.
This story gives me shivers. It was extremely hard to provide for your children back then. I cannot imagine how people from countries with much worse conditions can manage.
Edit adds this paragraph. I was a child then. I thought that everything around was a norm. I, actually, did not care much. Now I do.
Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
#225That's similar to how it was in 90's Yugoslavia during international sanctions. We didn't have so much crime (definitely no violent stuff like kidnaping), and cellphone was still big grey brick Fox Mulder would pull out of his jacket ... So sharing knowledge you've found bread or milk was spreading slower. For those asking how come farmers aren't making huge money in such cases - they still need to buy other stuff an…
Instead of "And IMHO you're mixing cause and effect ..." I meant "And IMHO you're mixing causation and correlation ..." making final paragraph:
And IMHO you're mixing causation and correlation when you mention state-controlled economies as a cause of this. It mostly fails because (for one reason or another) country is effectively blocked from trading with the rest of the world, and doesn't have enough variety in materials/resources to be on it's own.
Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
Several countries that are fairly socialist have higher living standards than the U.S., where "socialism" is an epithet for some reason. McCarthy lives on I suppose. Venezuela's problem is totalitarianism . In a socialist country, it is possible for the government to be governed by law and have limits placed on its power. That is not what's been going in in Venezuala.
Just because a country has high taxes and a social safety net doesn't mean its socialist. Socialism is collective ownership of the means of production. Which always has significant societal drawbacks.
> Socialism is collective ownership of the means of production. Which always has significant societal drawbacks.
Citation about developed countries where it is true desperately needed.
Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
You did not start a store in the USSR, period. That was one out a few countries where all business was tightly state-owned. You could grow some radishes and sell them at farmer's market, but that's it.
This is just false. All business in the USSR was not tightly state owned. Yes, the "commanding heights" of the economy were. You're claiming Kiev had no privately owned stores? Like many people here you're talking about a subject you don't know much about.
I've not been to Soviet Kiev, but yeah, I'm claiming that Late Soviet Moscow had no privately owned stores. I would be very interested to read about these if they existed.
First ones began to appear around 1987 I think in the form of КООП.
Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
#228Venezuela is on the brink. It has a socialist majority because previously the rich bleed them dry. Now the boot is on the other foot and the socialists are starving out the middle and upper classes who traditionally voted for the elite that controlled the media in Venezuela. So sad. At some point it will flip again and the cycle will repeat itself. Meanwhile the US continues to pressure the socialist government throu…
How is this America's fault?
I didn't say it was their fault. But they are part of the problem:
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/03/06/454168/national-eme...
Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right which is why I prefer to use collectivism which is prioritizing the group over the individual and would seem to subsume any definition of socialism you could ever reasonably give.
You sound like you think you're agreeing with me, but you're not. I'm saying that socialism, as practiced in Scandanavia, is not collectivist. That means that, no, collectivism does not "subsume any definition of socialism you could ever reasonably give".
Taking X% of an individual's outcome and putting it into a pool for the collective good sure sounds pretty close to: "Collective ownership of the means to production". Doubly-so if that X is more than 50, as that means you are working more for others or the collective than you are for yourself.
Any who, I really think the definition of "Socialism" and "Socialist" require an overhaul in our current societal climate. I'd say that back when that ideology was conceived, people saw people in general and themselves as barely more than "resource" cogs, and that the rulers or state had some sort of "effectively-divine" right to rule them. I would argue that civilized and connected society has moved past that, to the point that anything remotely close to actual socialism or communism would be equivalent to totalitarianism in people's minds. It would be seen as barbaric, and contrary to people's right to exist.
Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land
#230Venezuela is on the brink. It has a socialist majority because previously the rich bleed them dry. Now the boot is on the other foot and the socialists are starving out the middle and upper classes who traditionally voted for the elite that controlled the media in Venezuela. So sad. At some point it will flip again and the cycle will repeat itself. Meanwhile the US continues to pressure the socialist government throu…
>It has a socialist majority because previously the rich bleed them dry BS. The system was always open enough that you could make something of yourself. >Now the boot is on the other foot and the socialists are starving out the middle and upper classes. Except the upper and middle classes still have money to buy products at exorbitant prices. Who do you think are the people who are starving to death, having to kill w…
I suggest you read these for an shedding viewpoint. I'd hazard a guess that the truth lies somewhere in between the propaganda from both sides.
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/13-years-after-foi...
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/20/venezuelas-opposition...