Passport Index 2016 • Hacker News Board

Re: Passport Index 2016

#81

Post by mistermann » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 7:58 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #60

Negitivefrags wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing illogical about it. If all the worlds borders were open then economies would move to the average. Workers in poor countries would move to rich countries (because they have higher wages) until those countries wages had gone down, and the countries they left would have their wages go up due to the supply decrease in workers. It's complete logical self interest for country richer than the average to not…

Economies are not zero-sum. The flow of capital and education to poor countries would increase their productivity (and thus wages and standard of living) while the increased supply of labor decreases prices in rich countries, and the new equilibrium would be strictly better for both sides. Find a good economics textbook. (This is an issue where economists are in almost universal agreement, and almost universally oppo…

The way you describe it, it sounds like you believe there are no negative consequences for anyone, anywhere, ever.

Re: Passport Index 2016

#82

Post by Animats » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

tuna-piano wrote: post #71

uniqueid wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasoning about immigration laws is pointless because the foundation is based on magical thinking. There is no logic at all behind any of it. Citizenship by blood, by birthplace, by religion... then you look into getting a travel visa, or a work permit. There's nothing rational about any of it. Just endless lunacy. I probably shouldn't complain, as I'm eligible for four different citizenships... but when you look int…

I'm not so sure it's illogical. It's tough to kick people out of a country that they were born in. While a 3 time armed robber born in the US and released from prison will be back on the streets of the US - ideally he / she would be sent somewhere else. Immigration is a rare time when a country can choose what people to allow in or not. I would think that a country should be more concerned about its own residents tha…

"ideally he / she would be sent somewhere else."

Where? Who would want them?

Some years ago, there was a judge in a Southern town who had the bright idea of giving their criminals a bus ticket to LA. One of the criminals was arrested in LA and told cops and prosecutors about this. LA authorities were annoyed, and there was some press coverage. Someone pointed out that LA could easily give bus tickets to a few hundred of their crooks and send them to the Southern town. The judge stopped sending people to LA.

Re: Passport Index 2016

#83

Post by back_beyond » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:00 PM UTC

ZoF wrote: post #79

tuna-piano wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just 90 miles from Key West, Florida there is a country which required strict exit visas until just 3 years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/15/cuba-relaxes-t...

"Just 90 miles from Key West there is a country" - Why not just explicitly state the country....? We know it's Cuba and these restrictions existed for obvious reasons.

It emphasizes Cuba's geographical proximity to the Western World.

Re: Passport Index 2016

#84

Post by omarkassim » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:01 PM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #51

jahnu wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine. When I was in Uzbekistan I met a local man who had studied in the UK and he explained to me how hard it was to travel. I was amazed you needed exit visas for your own country. I thought that stuff died long ago (with the exception of North Korea or so).

Many countries in the Middle East still require exit visas. Dubai (UAE) is one of them

Dubai and by the extension doesn't require any sort of exit permit to leave the country unless you're giving up your residency at which time, you go through a pretty painless visa cancellation process. Very free movement given our strong aviation culture and infrastructure.

Re: Passport Index 2016

#85

Post by tuna-piano » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:01 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #60

Negitivefrags wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing illogical about it. If all the worlds borders were open then economies would move to the average. Workers in poor countries would move to rich countries (because they have higher wages) until those countries wages had gone down, and the countries they left would have their wages go up due to the supply decrease in workers. It's complete logical self interest for country richer than the average to not…

Economies are not zero-sum. The flow of capital and education to poor countries would increase their productivity (and thus wages and standard of living) while the increased supply of labor decreases prices in rich countries, and the new equilibrium would be strictly better for both sides. Find a good economics textbook. (This is an issue where economists are in almost universal agreement, and almost universally oppo…

Free trade (and free immigration, which is essentially the same) is undoubtedly good on the whole. However, the current anti-trade pandering from Trump / Sanders and the like may also be correct.

Expanded access to markets may be unequal. For example, if there was an untapped country that had a million unemployed meteorologists - signing a free-trade deal with that country would most likely be terrible for meteorologists in America - although all other Americans would be better off with improved weather forecasts.

Replace "meteorologists" with "factory laborer" and you can see why so many of the current anti-trade folks are upset with what they see happening. They aren't barbers or plumbers - they're factory workers. The barbers, plumbers and engineers get cheaper stuff (and are better off), but the factory workers get paid less.

Re: Passport Index 2016

#86

Post by 67726e » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:02 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #60

Negitivefrags wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing illogical about it. If all the worlds borders were open then economies would move to the average. Workers in poor countries would move to rich countries (because they have higher wages) until those countries wages had gone down, and the countries they left would have their wages go up due to the supply decrease in workers. It's complete logical self interest for country richer than the average to not…

Economies are not zero-sum. The flow of capital and education to poor countries would increase their productivity (and thus wages and standard of living) while the increased supply of labor decreases prices in rich countries, and the new equilibrium would be strictly better for both sides. Find a good economics textbook. (This is an issue where economists are in almost universal agreement, and almost universally oppo…

I'm sorry but that's transparently bullshit, an example of good on paper but bad I reality. It does very little but line the pockets of a select few in the rich nations. There is no reason for me to give a shit about someone in Africa if it means my own family, my own people struggle.

Re: Passport Index 2016

#87

Post by aniro » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:02 PM UTC

ZoF wrote: post #79

tuna-piano wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just 90 miles from Key West, Florida there is a country which required strict exit visas until just 3 years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/15/cuba-relaxes-t...

"Just 90 miles from Key West there is a country" - Why not just explicitly state the country....? We know it's Cuba and these restrictions existed for obvious reasons.

The name of the country is not nearly as important as its proximity to the US.

It is very effective writing.

Re: Passport Index 2016

#88

Post by justinlardinois » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:03 PM UTC

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #58

cloudjacker wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, they are called 'second passport' guides. assuming marriage is unfavorable and you don't want to pretend to be jewish, there are a couple of treaties you can take advantage of, typically old imperialist countries have guilt trips with their former south american or african colonies and have an easy citizenship path for citizens in those former colonies. But then those former colonies have really malleable gover…

> it isn't that expensive though. ~500,000 euros. Any homeowner in the bay area could do it. I'm not sure whether to roll my eyes at over half a million dollars being "not that expensive" or the assertion that any Bay Area homeowner has that much liquidity to just toss at a Maltese passport. Unless you're suggesting selling the house to do it.

Even then, you have to contend with American taxes and USD-to-Euro conversion fees. The idea that 500,000 Euros is inexpensive for anyone who's less than a multimillionaire is ridiculous.

Re: Passport Index 2016

#89

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:04 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #60

Negitivefrags wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing illogical about it. If all the worlds borders were open then economies would move to the average. Workers in poor countries would move to rich countries (because they have higher wages) until those countries wages had gone down, and the countries they left would have their wages go up due to the supply decrease in workers. It's complete logical self interest for country richer than the average to not…

Economies are not zero-sum. The flow of capital and education to poor countries would increase their productivity (and thus wages and standard of living) while the increased supply of labor decreases prices in rich countries, and the new equilibrium would be strictly better for both sides. Find a good economics textbook. (This is an issue where economists are in almost universal agreement, and almost universally oppo…

> The flow of capital and education to poor countries would increase their productivity (and thus wages and standard of living) while the increased supply of labor decreases prices in rich countries, and the new equilibrium would be strictly better for both sides.

The fact that it isn't zero-sum doesn't mean that it's always strictly better for both sides. There are many policies that will give +4 to a foreign citizen at the cost of -2 to a US citizen, which is not zero sum but is still not to the advantage of the US.

> (This is an issue where economists are in almost universal agreement, and almost universally opposed by politicians and the general public).

Not an unexpected result, since economists are generally utilitarians more than nationalists and politicians the opposite.

Re: Passport Index 2016

#90

Post by ZoF » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:05 PM UTC

aniro wrote: post #87

ZoF wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just 90 miles from Key West there is a country" - Why not just explicitly state the country....? We know it's Cuba and these restrictions existed for obvious reasons.

The name of the country is not nearly as important as its proximity to the US. It is very effective writing.

I think they're intimately related in this context and disagree that it's proximity is important beyond it's identification, which, as stated above, is obvious.