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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

theatlantic.com

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#161

Post by sanderjd »

jonny_eh wrote: post #150
delazeur wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws Notably, this power does not appear in the Constitution. See Marbury v. Madison [1]. (Not that it makes a practical difference, but it is interesting to see how our conception of government powers and the basic government structure changes over time, even without new constitutional amendments.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison

I believe that case was covered in the most recent episode of the podcast "More Perfect", from the makers of RadioLab: http://www.wnyc.org/story/giggly-blue-robot

Wow, small world! I was listening to that when I opened this article.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#162

Post by sanderjd »

petercooper wrote: post #92
whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously). We have attai…

This is similar to the US system, except that our Speaker of the House has less power than the Prime Minister, and our President has (a lot) more power than the monarch.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#163

Post by vidarh »

ZainRiz wrote: post #120
oblio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?

While I don't agree with the French approach of regulating dress, one of their arguments is that you do affect other people with your choice of how to dress, and that people should not have to be subjected to certain overt expressions of religion in certain contexts, with schools being a particularly sensitive topic because of their position in passing on the ideals of the republic.

I think they go way too far, and a that some of it is bigotry hiding behind the excuse of secularism, but it illustrates that determining what sufficiently negatively "affects others" to be worth sanction can be used to reach widely different conclusions..

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#164

Post by wavefunction »

Shinkei wrote: post #144
ZainRiz wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?

Culture can be affected by draconian laws also. I believe religious clothing designed to oppress women is regressive and detrimental to Democracy. Please read this: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/sep/03/hengame...

That's funny that you mention democracy and oppression of women. Ancient Greeks of Athens and the other city states kept their women cloistered out of public. Women had no rights and were basically chattel in these societies.

Democracy is like technology, morally neutral yet capable of great good or terrible inhumanity.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#165

Post by bjourne »

mikeash wrote: post #108
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

Note that the Nazis never had the support of the majority. It's a common myth that Hitler was elected, but he seized power at gunpoint after winning a minority of the legislature (albeit a sizeable minority). Putin is similar, with electoral fraud substituting for naked force. Trump remains to be seen. Erdogan, on the other hand, seems to legitimately enjoy the support of the majority. It may just be a quantitative d…

That's how it works in multi-party parliaments. It's very rare for one party to get more than 50% so instead the largest minority party (or constellation of parties) gets selected to form a government. NSDAP was that party in Germany in 1932.

It's only in the American and English systems where there are only two options to choose from that a leader can claim "majority" support.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#166

Post by gameofdrones »

ZainRiz wrote: post #120
oblio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?

French culture has some inconsistent, fascist, illiberalisms, especially in the differences of making fun of Christianity vs. making fun of Judaism, or similarly with Christianity vs. Islam. (govt demanding firing of Sine). Actual progressive liberalism should at least include listening to other viewpoints, being open to new ideas and generally being sensible and constructive. But narrow, identity-politics labels aren't all that useful in reality and end up inventing wedge-issues and false dichotomies. (There are some people looking for common ground while others are looking for Sayre's law fights.)

Je suis Charlie

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#167

Post by personjerry »

dmix wrote: post #119
countrybama24 wrote: post #112

https://fr24.com/THY8456/a5a3952 That looks like Erdogan's jet. Was in a holding pattern for the last hour. Now heading to Istanbul. Seems like the coup has failed?

How could a coup fail so quickly?

How would a coup succeed slowly?

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#168

Post by delazeur »

jonny_eh wrote: post #150
delazeur wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws Notably, this power does not appear in the Constitution. See Marbury v. Madison [1]. (Not that it makes a practical difference, but it is interesting to see how our conception of government powers and the basic government structure changes over time, even without new constitutional amendments.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison

I believe that case was covered in the most recent episode of the podcast "More Perfect", from the makers of RadioLab: http://www.wnyc.org/story/giggly-blue-robot

Oh cool, I'm a big fan of Akhil Amar.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#169

Post by bradleyjg »

sanderjd wrote: post #162
petercooper wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously). We have attai…

This is similar to the US system, except that our Speaker of the House has less power than the Prime Minister, and our President has (a lot) more power than the monarch.

Those changes take away the benefit he outlines for his system. In the US system the President is the most dangerous actor (notwithstanding the Federalist Papers prediction that it would be Congress).

That said, I'm not sure I like the idea of the military as a last resort. At most I think it would be best if they stood aside for a revolution rather than actually instigating a coup.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#170

Post by ceejayoz »

dmix wrote: post #119
countrybama24 wrote: post #112

https://fr24.com/THY8456/a5a3952 That looks like Erdogan's jet. Was in a holding pattern for the last hour. Now heading to Istanbul. Seems like the coup has failed?

How could a coup fail so quickly?

Most are either failed or successful in a matter of hours.
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