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UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

theguardian.com

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Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#241

Post by matwood »

Radim wrote: post #206
sievebrain wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's why the EU is doomed and will be gone within a decade no matter what they do now. It is a fundamentally unattractive entity. The people who run it have never even tried to combat rising anti-EU feeling across the continent, as they believe the EU is inevitable and unstoppable, so why bother trying to make it more popular. Now it's probably too late: they've become so gripped by groupthink they can't refor…

Yes, that's why the EU is doomed and will be gone within a decade no matter what they do now. "I give the Bolsheviks a year, two at most". Quote from a famous Czech movie [1] about the ill-fated Prague Spring, 1968 :-) But in fact, communism survived for more than another twenty years... My point: these things take longer than one would expect. Unlike logic, where a proven theorem takes its "logical effect" immediate…

I agree it will take longer than anyone thinks, and wanted to add that the EU has been struggling for awhile now. Greece, Italy, and Spain are the real tests.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#242

Post by wildmusings »

dragonwriter wrote: post #231
wildmusings wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The massive fear mongering campaign by pro-EU forces will blow up in their face when the UK continues to do phenomenally well past the New Year. The people don't like being manipulated.

> The massive fear mongering campaign by pro-EU forces will blow up in their face when the UK continues to do phenomenally well past the New Year. How? Seems to me most of the predicted bad consequences were tied to leaving the EU, which (barring some mutual agreement with the EU on an alternate timetable) happens two years after Article 50 is invoked, which it has not yet been. Why would the UK continuing to do well…

Do you think the restructuring will happen overnight? Don't you think markets take into account expected future outcomes?

The Brexit crash was the beginning. The media told everyone to panic, so everyone sold. Then people realized how irrational that was. Personally, I'm hoping for more liberal-media driven sell offs. They're great opportunities to invest.

The future of the British economy is strong: an educated populace, competitive companies, and a pro-business government. They're going to get a great trade deal with America. They're going to do better than ever before having thrown off the beaurocrats in Brussels.

In response to dragonwriter below (I'm rate-limited):

In two years time is when the tariffs would kick in overnight in the absence of a deal. No company is stupid enough to wait that long to adjust their operations.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#243

Post by regularfry »

sievebrain wrote: post #118
DasIch wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the UK had the people to start trade negotiations right this second, they're not allowed to until they leave the EU and it takes years to negotiate such an agreement. It would take decades for the UK to catch up to the EU on trade agreements again, if they ever do.

The UK can negotiate deals before exit, just under EU law it can't sign them. However, why obey EU rules when you're about to leave? The only reason to do this would be to leave on good terms. But the EU sees Brexit as a betrayal that must be punished severely to try and scare other countries into not leaving. There are no "good terms" by their choice, not the UK's. So the UK should start immediately violating whatev…

Why would anyone in the EU want to negotiate or do anything other than stall until the UK is under WTO rules? Wouldn't they want the UK in as weak a position as possible?

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#244

Post by BellsOnSunday »

DanBC wrote: post #221
monk_e_boy wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this was laid out in the Brexit arguments. We all watched it on TV and read about it. Leave said they would continue to fund science, farms, Wales and Cornwall and match the EU funding. Weather this actually happens will be interesting. I think the Tories will neg on that. I think Labour would keep funding. But in Cornwall, all those millions of EU funding were spent on total crap and none of the local people…

> Leave said they would continue to fund science, farms, Wales and Cornwall and match the EU funding. How can they fund all that stuff when they said they would spend all that money on the NHS? http://imgur.com/indvx6a "Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week" - that's not "some of" or "part of", that's "all of".

It wasn't a general election and I didn't vote for either of the sides. If "Leave" (as if that were one organisation) said "it" was going to do something, how could that be guaranteed, unless they were able to form a government? If you believed them then it must be disappointing but welcome to UK politics.

I gave my answer to the question on the ballot slip, something I had a settled view on before the campaign began and I don't think I'm that unusual. I think that claims about the £350m etc made as much difference as claims that brexit would bring on the apocalypse by lunchtime.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#245

Post by chimprich »

sievebrain wrote: post #164
wrong_variable wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you provide some examples of countries striking better trade deals. Its also two things negotiators and knowing your strengths. The world's best negotiators wont be able help you very much if you do not have much to offer. Also I am skeptical of your assertion that anyone could write trade deals. It requires a very deep understanding of economics, international finance, geopolitics and a bunch of other topics -…

Chile is a good example. More deals, better (more often including services) and earlier. Like I said, I've read trade deals. One I actually read almost from start to finish (the recent WTO deal on upgrading customs rules, I forgot the specific name). If Chile can sign trade deals with much bigger economic powers, much more quickly than the EU can, I see no reason why the UK would be unable to. Can you justify your as…

What do you think is better about Chile's trade deals compared to, say, the UK's access to the common market? The UK's trade deal with the EU was surely more powerful than Chile's relationship to the US.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#246

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

wildmusings wrote: post #229
vidarh wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latest polls have shown dramatic drops in anti-EU sentiments after the Brexit poll. If those numbers hold up, on the contrary Brexit may lead to a gear-shift towards more rapid integration of the rest of the EU.

The massive fear mongering campaign by pro-EU forces will blow up in their face when the UK continues to do phenomenally well past the New Year. The people don't like being manipulated.

> when the UK continues to do phenomenally well

So, in your view, the UK is doing " phenomenally well" right now? I mean I have read other opinions, including "deep political, social, democratic and economic crisis" and "value of the pound plunges".

If the EU is trying to convince the remaining member states that "leaving is terrible, you should remain", then it's absolutely working:

http://www.politico.eu/article/support-for-angela-merkel-ris... https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/support-for-eu-memb...

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#247

Post by sievebrain »

programLyrique wrote: post #200
sievebrain wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how EU funding works. It distributes funds with many rules attached, but implementing those rules is the job of local government bureaucracies not the EU. The EU regional development funds are notoriously wasteful, I wouldn't ascribe any value to scale or institutional experience.

> The EU regional development funds are notoriously wasteful Can you give references? Preferably not only one anecdotical example, and with comparisons with state development funds (especially from the UK).

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-33360841

http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-wasted-money-on-new-airpor...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11985763...

I don't know of any comparisons with state-run development funds in the UK, if you find one let me know, but post-Gordon Brown the UK tends to focus less on big spending projects to try and economically boost the regions, hence the grumbling about how London gets the lions share of investment funding.

The EU likes to dole out a lot of money to businesses for investment purposes, which is suspiciously close to central planning. I doubt national-level central planners do a radically better job though.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#248

Post by endeavour »

vidarh wrote: post #224
wildmusings wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the only "next steps" for the EU is a frantic attempt to not crumble. The National Front and Alternative for Germany are gaining fast.

The latest polls have shown dramatic drops in anti-EU sentiments after the Brexit poll. If those numbers hold up, on the contrary Brexit may lead to a gear-shift towards more rapid integration of the rest of the EU.

If.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#249

Post by BellsOnSunday »

misja111 wrote: post #86
codecurve wrote: post #25

I just finished an EU funded CompSci Masters degree in Wales, the poorest country in the UK and it's devastatingly sad to think that once the EU research funding stops, those opportunities will be gone forever for future students coming through the department. There aren't enough large tech companies in the area for there to be any sponsored degrees available, which probably means that when the funding finishes, the…

The UK is a net payer to the EU. For instance in 2015 alone, UK's net payment to the EU was about 8.5 billion pounds. So after the Brexit there will be more than enough money to continue the research funding. But as you mention already, it is another question if the government will be wanting to pay it. But is this really such a bad thing? The difference will that instead of the EU, the UK itself will decide which of…

> The UK is a net payer to the EU

This is true in all areas except research funding. That's because researchers can take part in EU-funded projects (e.g. Horizon 2020) where the funding was awarded to a multi-national project team and so doesn't form part of the UK entitlement.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#250

Post by dekhn »

_delirium wrote: post #240
dekhn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but while there is confusion and lack of clarity, it's not clear that immediately removing UK investigators is appropriate. Some amount of this is just petulance or telegraphing unhappiness, rather than rational decision making.

As far as I understand it, nobody is immediately removing UK investigators from existing, already awarded projects. Those are going on as planned (I'm part of one myself). I'm not sure it would even be possible to do so under the research programme's rules. What's happening is that people who are just now putting together new groups of investigators in order to send an application into the next funding call are think…

I am still having trouble seeing, for certain and without ambiguity, that Brext itself implies that UK researchers can't be listed on future projects. is that a straight-line, 100% implication? Everything I've read about Brexit suggests that nobody can predict the specifics about what will happen, when it will happen, or how much will actually happen.
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