UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears • Hacker News Board

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#221

Post by DanBC » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #217

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK's premier scientists can always get jobs elsewhere - and probably will. After a while, if research funding dries up, there won't be any more premier scientists being produced. Two, if you vote for people who are going to deny you prosperity, you don't get prosperity. If the working classes don't understand that, it's not the fault of the professional classes who - mostly - do. The reality is that some of those…

All of this was laid out in the Brexit arguments. We all watched it on TV and read about it. Leave said they would continue to fund science, farms, Wales and Cornwall and match the EU funding. Weather this actually happens will be interesting. I think the Tories will neg on that. I think Labour would keep funding. But in Cornwall, all those millions of EU funding were spent on total crap and none of the local people…

> Leave said they would continue to fund science, farms, Wales and Cornwall and match the EU funding.

How can they fund all that stuff when they said they would spend all that money on the NHS?

http://imgur.com/indvx6a

"Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week" - that's not "some of" or "part of", that's "all of".

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#222

Post by vidarh » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

roymurdock wrote: post #183

flexie wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talked to a senior diplomat recently. He said that when talking to diplomats from China, Russia, the US in the beginning of his career some 30 years ago, nobody asked about the EU opinion on issues. In the last 10 years, however, he never heard "what does Britain or France or Germany think about XYZ" but only "What does the EU think". What some leavers don't realise is that the entire world had gotten used to deali…

So politicians will stop asking "What does the EU think" and go back to asking "What do Germany, France, and the UK think, and are they in agreement"? The distinction is less important than you think, because the second question gets at the heart of the issue and naturally follows the first. Unlike the US, The EU does not have a strong executive/legislative/judicial (and perhaps more-importantly, a shared language/na…

I think it's terribly naive to think they'll stop to ask what the EU thinks. They'll keep asking that, and if the UK gets mentioned it will be as an afterthought.

> Also, the UK is still the 5th largest economy in the world by GDP ($2.8T).

But relatively speaking, it's position is weakening year by year, as it's seeing anaemic growth compared to a large number of other economies.

More importantly, we're seeing the rise of more and more trading blocks, at a time when the UK has decided to stand outside. E.g. Africa is going to overtake the UK as a whole shortly. Hardly all that strange given we're talking about more countries than the EU. But ECOWAS - one of the regional pillars of the African Union - is on a trajectory to overtake the UK all on its own sometime in the next couple of decades, and with current growth it is likely more of them will.

It is pretty much inconceivable that the UK will remain 5th over the next decade, and it's looking likely that the UK won't even remain in the top ten over the next two decades, unless something happens to massively increase UK growth.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#223

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

bpyne wrote: post #186

flexie wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talked to a senior diplomat recently. He said that when talking to diplomats from China, Russia, the US in the beginning of his career some 30 years ago, nobody asked about the EU opinion on issues. In the last 10 years, however, he never heard "what does Britain or France or Germany think about XYZ" but only "What does the EU think". What some leavers don't realise is that the entire world had gotten used to deali…

I know little of Britain's political system. If Article 50 isn't being invoked until the end of the year, can Britain have another national vote on Brexit before then?

> If Article 50 isn't being invoked until the end of the year, can Britain have another national vote on Brexit before then?

Britain could have national votes every week if the Government decided to hold them, but the government seems disinclined to have another referendum on Brexit.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#224

Post by vidarh » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:15 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #190

neximo64 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next steps will actually be France will give up its seat and the EU will take it up. The UK was also going to give it up (alongside its WTO seat) which was what drove Cameron's 'ever closer union' clause.

I think the only "next steps" for the EU is a frantic attempt to not crumble. The National Front and Alternative for Germany are gaining fast.

The latest polls have shown dramatic drops in anti-EU sentiments after the Brexit poll. If those numbers hold up, on the contrary Brexit may lead to a gear-shift towards more rapid integration of the rest of the EU.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#225

Post by sievebrain » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:15 PM UTC

tremon wrote: post #205

sievebrain wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is not a club and has clear power structures that mean there is no need to get Scotland to agree to things in order for them to happen, as evidenced by the referendum.

It's sad how people use this line of reasoning to attack the EU, but see no problems using the exact same thing when defending the current UK structure.

It wasn't a defence, it was just an explanation.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#226

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:15 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #201

bpyne wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know little of Britain's political system. If Article 50 isn't being invoked until the end of the year, can Britain have another national vote on Brexit before then?

Technically yes. But I imagine that if they did everyone would be incensed and vote leave - to send a message. Whoever was in power at the time would be hoisted out in short order.

> But I imagine that if they did everyone would be incensed and vote leave - to send a message.

I suspect not; for one, I think many of the 4+ million who signed the petition for a new referendum would probably vote "Remain".

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#227

Post by antientropic » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:15 PM UTC

tremon wrote: post #180

alan_cx wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, just workers rights, human rights, safety regulations, that sort of thing...

Not sure if sarcasm, but: - Human rights are governed by the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), which is a separate organization and treaty than the EU. It's unlikely the UK will leave the Council of Europe too. - Safety regulations on products are part of the single market treaties, just as free movement of people is. If the UK wants to remain in the EEA (e.g. through membership of the EFTA), it will still…

Actually, the incoming prime minister wants to get out of the ECHR: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/uk-must-leav...

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#228

Post by etatoby » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:15 PM UTC

djlastword wrote: post #197

rwmj wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't view everyone in the UK as one "thing", as if all British people are (in your words) arrogant. 48% of people voted to remain in the EU.

I was referring more to the leadership than the people. If you're a bremainer I genuinely sympathise with you.

It's very likely he is a remainer, considering the nature of this forum.

Stats show there was (is?) a clear divide between leave and remain along geographical, age, and class boundaries, which are most certainly correlated with higher education and/or interest in technical subjects.

And yes, we sympathise with you.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#229

Post by wildmusings » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #224

wildmusings wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the only "next steps" for the EU is a frantic attempt to not crumble. The National Front and Alternative for Germany are gaining fast.

The latest polls have shown dramatic drops in anti-EU sentiments after the Brexit poll. If those numbers hold up, on the contrary Brexit may lead to a gear-shift towards more rapid integration of the rest of the EU.

The massive fear mongering campaign by pro-EU forces will blow up in their face when the UK continues to do phenomenally well past the New Year. The people don't like being manipulated.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#230

Post by _delirium » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

lhnz wrote: post #133

tankenmate wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But of course that means staying in the EEA for the moment at least; which means freedom of movement, EU regulations, but now with much reduced influence... CETA for example took 5.5 years to negotiate and of course it still needs to be ratified. On the other hand if the UK leaves the EU and the EEA then under EU rules it will need to wait until it fully leaves before it can negotiate a CETA style trade agreement. In…

Freedom of movement is actually a fairly good thing, though. > EU regulations, but now without (sic) much reduced influence You are misinformed, please read '1. "No Say"' of 'The Case For The EEA Option' [0]: The next level of argument surrounding “no say” is that despite not having a vote in EU institutions, EEA countries have some ability to protect their own interests from EU law. They retain a “right of reservati…

> Freedom of movement is actually a fairly good thing, though.

It's one of the parts of the EU I like better, but isn't it one of the things the people voting Leave most disliked? Leaving the EU only to still have unrestricted immigration from eastern Europe seems like an outcome UKIP would consider a hollow victory.