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UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

theguardian.com

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Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#151

Post by teh »

sievebrain wrote: post #109
djaychela wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"More than enough money" (and certainly the figures I've seen people bandying about) assumes that the cost of accessing the EU market (which I think we will have to pay) would be zero. I think it will be a significant proportion of the amount we were paying (net) to the EU, and in addition there will be other costs which people are just starting to cotton onto as well. The main thing is that at the moment, we really…

WTO max tariffs (worst case scenario) are 4%. But the currency has weaked by about 8%. So even if max tariffs are applied tomorrow, UK goods are still cheaper to buy in the EU than before! In practice, if the EU doesn't strike a deal with the UK (which it won't) then I think it will suffer more exits. Because the EU has spent years trying to sign free trade deals with America, Canada and other places. If it turns aro…

I've read many of your comments here and I'm not convinced you have a good understanding of how the EU works. [1] is a committee meeting that tries to establish how we could disentangle ourselves from the EU. It's very long but it's full of great info how the exit could work, and as a side-effect full of info how the EU itself works.

Making a case from an uninformed POV is not convincing me. If you back up your statements with data and pointers I'll pay more attention!

[1] http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/cb083c53-3998-4f3a-...

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#152

Post by sievebrain »

DasIch wrote: post #147
sievebrain wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could agree. For me to agree I'd have to believe the people who control the EU are representative of the people they rule and are willing to compromise. However they have already shown very clearly that they aren't like that. Given the total absence of compromise previously I see no reason to expect any now, unless quite a few of the current leaders of the Commission and EU countries are removed. The EU will…

The EU has compromised, especially with the UK, on a lot of things.

In the past when it was smaller, yes.

Nowadays, not so much. Perhaps that's Juncker, or perhaps it's the fact that it's now so large. See how Cameron's negotiation went (or rather, didn't).

Besides, most of the compromises were simply not forcing the UK to do new things. That's only seen as a compromise because the EU is run by people who believe every member should be forcibly 'harmonised' through automatic implementation of new EU laws. If the EU was more like a standards body that simply recommended laws instead of mandating their implementation, there would be no need for allowing alternatives to be seen as "compromise"

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#153

Post by Chris2048 »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #146
gambiting wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was BBC that said that UK government has literally just 6(yes, six) people who have any sort of experience in international trade negotiations, since UK hasn't done it alone in so long.

Even the government believes it will take six years to renegotiate the deals - which means it's likely to take ten or more. This continues to be one of the most suicidal moves in British history.

WW2?

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#154

Post by dekhn »

czr80 wrote: post #46
dekhn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but while there is confusion and lack of clarity, it's not clear that immediately removing UK investigators is appropriate. Some amount of this is just petulance or telegraphing unhappiness, rather than rational decision making.

Science funding is extremely competitive. Why would it be rational for EU researchers to take on additional risk?

What additional risk is there? Be specific.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#155

Post by dekhn »

wnkrshm wrote: post #77
dekhn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but while there is confusion and lack of clarity, it's not clear that immediately removing UK investigators is appropriate. Some amount of this is just petulance or telegraphing unhappiness, rather than rational decision making.

The proposals for the big EU calls like Horizon 2020 contain detailed work packages and plans for how the research effort is going to be orchestrated to be successful. To my knowledge, the quality of this planning is a decisive factor in the acceptance of a proposal. If a research partner drops out halfway through the project, the whole effort may fall apart - and with research institutions and industrial partners bo…

I'm having trouble seeing why UK partners here are specifically going to drop out of a funded research project simply because Brexit.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#156

Post by [deleted] »

sievebrain wrote: post #103
junto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only will the EU trade treaty need to be renegotiated, but so does the 50 other trade treaty with other nations - those treaties took a lot of time and over 600+ negotiators to write, the UK only have 30 negotiators and about 2 years. The UK hasn't done their own trade negotiations for over 30 years. The EU has. They haven't got the right people with the right experience to do this (yet). They need to hire the…

The EU has done an extremely bad job of signing trade deals. Much smaller countries have managed to do a much better job. I wouldn't look at the EU and say "we need the same setup" because the EU deliberately makes it hard for itself to sign deals by insisting that they try to satisfy 28 different countries simultaneously, who don't use the same language and which all have their own random domestic priorities to hand…

[deleted]

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#157

Post by sievebrain »

teh wrote: post #151
sievebrain wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTO max tariffs (worst case scenario) are 4%. But the currency has weaked by about 8%. So even if max tariffs are applied tomorrow, UK goods are still cheaper to buy in the EU than before! In practice, if the EU doesn't strike a deal with the UK (which it won't) then I think it will suffer more exits. Because the EU has spent years trying to sign free trade deals with America, Canada and other places. If it turns aro…

I've read many of your comments here and I'm not convinced you have a good understanding of how the EU works. [1] is a committee meeting that tries to establish how we could disentangle ourselves from the EU. It's very long but it's full of great info how the exit could work, and as a side-effect full of info how the EU itself works. Making a case from an uninformed POV is not convincing me. If you back up your state…

What specifically do you have in mind? You've said I'm wrong but not given any examples.

I tend to not argue from the basis of how the EU is supposed to work, because it tends to put its long-range vision ahead of following specific rules. See how the deficit rules are working out: France is allowed to break the rules "because it's France" (Juncker's words).

To predict the behaviour of such an institution it's better to listen to what the leaders are saying and how they've acted before rather than trying to read the fine print.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#158

Post by ck425 »

sievebrain wrote: post #98
ck425 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't deny there will be less funding, given the amount of funding we receive from the EU. Though hopefully the new PM will prioritise investment in research and hopefully given the strong technology sector in the UK CompSci will get a reasonable share of it. But that's still to be seen and given May's attitude toward technology experts and level of knowledge during the discussions around the Snoopers Charter I'm…

The EU doesn't "fund" anything, the UK funds the EU by paying in more than it gets back out. It's literally the UK's own money being recycled through Brussels, except with extra rules and exchange rate risks thrown in. Whether or not research funding is cut is an entirely open question right now. Maybe it will be: the EU has effectively been overriding the austerity policies everyone else in the economy has had to de…

We are seeing a cut in funding because until we exit and redistribute that money the EU will in the meantime not fund UK scientists or UK based projects.

As I said given May's history with the technology industries it seems unlikely.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#159

Post by endeavour »

wrong_variable wrote: post #150
sievebrain wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU has done an extremely bad job of signing trade deals. Much smaller countries have managed to do a much better job. I wouldn't look at the EU and say "we need the same setup" because the EU deliberately makes it hard for itself to sign deals by insisting that they try to satisfy 28 different countries simultaneously, who don't use the same language and which all have their own random domestic priorities to hand…

Could you provide some examples of countries striking better trade deals. Its also two things negotiators and knowing your strengths. The world's best negotiators wont be able help you very much if you do not have much to offer. Also I am skeptical of your assertion that anyone could write trade deals. It requires a very deep understanding of economics, international finance, geopolitics and a bunch of other topics -…

Chile, Switzerland and Iceland all have free trade agreements with China. The EU doesn't.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#160

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

mc32 wrote: post #138
codecurve wrote: post #25

I just finished an EU funded CompSci Masters degree in Wales, the poorest country in the UK and it's devastatingly sad to think that once the EU research funding stops, those opportunities will be gone forever for future students coming through the department. There aren't enough large tech companies in the area for there to be any sponsored degrees available, which probably means that when the funding finishes, the…

Couple of things: The UK has premier scientists. The EU would be remiss to not find a way to work things out. If not, I'm sure other places will pick them up. These are field leading scientists. Two, upper middle class still don't get it. They're still tone deaf. The Brexit was the working class demanding what was promised them, which was prosperity that never came. Instead they got sold out for a cheaper European wo…

The UK's premier scientists can always get jobs elsewhere - and probably will. After a while, if research funding dries up, there won't be any more premier scientists being produced.

Two, if you vote for people who are going to deny you prosperity, you don't get prosperity.

If the working classes don't understand that, it's not the fault of the professional classes who - mostly - do.

The reality is that some of those hoity toity Islington socialists care a lot more about the rest of the country than anyone else does.

The upper classes are happy to con the people they think of as plebs with flag waving, a bit of bunting, and wall to wall lies.

You can't blame the middle classes if they get shouted down with name calling for pointing this out.

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