The American Dream Is Alive in Finland • Hacker News Board

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#91

Post by fleitz » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:17 PM UTC

cplanas wrote: post #44

getgoingnow wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. Nordic countries and other rich European countries owe large part of their success to colonization in the past. For example, Belgium performed mass genocide in Congo, enslaved the people and stole the natural resources in the country. So, today people in Belgium live comfortably, since the modern Belgium is built on top of African slaves' pile of bones. About half of GDP of Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Finl…

> Nordic countries [...] owe large part of their success to colonization in the past. The Nordic countries had no (or negligible) colonies. The Nordic countries are Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and Norway.

lol. Please tell me more about how Nordic people never established any colonies. The countries that made all the colonies are Nordic colonies in and of themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#92

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:19 PM UTC

cplanas wrote: post #88

sremani wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how convenient, to pick and make it native vs foreign born? you know better than that! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State...

Diversity, as understood as a possible problem for social cohesion, is not about race: it's about culture. And the vast majority of Americans in the US have only one culture: the American one. The exception for this is first (and sometimes second) generation immigrants. That's why I use the native vs foreign born statistic.

> And the vast majority of Americans in the US have only one culture: the American one.

I don't think there is one unifying American culture. There are some common cultural elements, but there are fairly distinct regional (as well as racial/ethnic) cultures in the US.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#93

Post by civilian » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

cplanas wrote: post #88

sremani wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how convenient, to pick and make it native vs foreign born? you know better than that! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State...

Diversity, as understood as a possible problem for social cohesion, is not about race: it's about culture. And the vast majority of Americans in the US have only one culture: the American one. The exception for this is first (and sometimes second) generation immigrants. That's why I use the native vs foreign born statistic.

Ah, there are many different cultures among the people who are born with American citizenship. It's common-sense to me that most of the races have their own culture. (Although, admitting that it's common sense to me makes me wonder why sociology we have to back it up.) A lot of my friends in high school were Chinese-American. They spoke without accent, and most of their families actually came via Taiwan, but their culture and values and family structure were distinctly different. Also, shoes-off in their home!

And even among whites, there are distinct cultures. I was confused why I didn't enjoy living in Massachusetts, until I read this: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/27/book-review-albions-see... and it started to make more sense. I've got Borderer roots :)

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#94

Post by aetherson » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #74

aetherson wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, sure. But Norway's production is 1.9 million barrels per day ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ... ), and its population is 5.1 million, so 1.9M * 40 * 365 / 5.1M = $5.4K per person per year. The US's GDP would be yet higher if it could sustain an increase in petroleum production by 75% or so.

Sorry, redid my math. Even if you assume 5.4k/person from oil with zero costs there is a 30k/person per year difference in nominal GDP. And a much larger gap in PPP.

Well, sure. And Sweden and Denmark have pretty comparable GDPs to the US, and Finland is notably lower than the US.

What's your narrative here? Is the Norway vs. Sweden difference due to something OTHER than oil? They're very similar countries! If you're seeing the Norway vs. Sweden thing as due to something other than oil, what are you arguing is unique to Norway? If you do agree that Norway's GDP/capita advantage over its neighbors is due to oil, you have to accept that a resource advantage that produces a few thousand dollars/year in direct purchase, basically stimulates AD to the point where the entire economy goes up and snowballs into a few tens of thousands of dollars per year.

To be clear, I don't think that our views are wildly distinct. I'm not a hater of the Nordic countries. But Norway is an outlier from the other Nordics, and the only plausible explanation I can come up with for its outlier status is oil. So I don't think it's a very useful reference point.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#95

Post by jawbone3 » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

sanoli wrote: post #82

lumberjack wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Individuals don't care about their ability to change their percentile, they care about their ability to change their total income. I think most individuals would prefer a "non-mobile" $60k increase in income versus a "mobile" $40k increase in income. You can't spend percentiles. I highly dispute this. Take it as a completely different world view but I think if people were given a choice: 1 >a nominal income of $100k…

Depends. Can I opt for the $100k income and then move to the $60k neighborhood?

Yes, that is choice 2

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#96

Post by flubert » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

SixSigma wrote: post #46

jomamaxx wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution." While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves. I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possi…

I've never seen poverty in developed nations like I did in Atlanta, except maybe in Aborigines of Perth, Australia. It seems to me, although I haven't lived it, that food stamps cause more problems than cash handouts.

Rates of homelessness:

US: 633782 / 314000000 => 202 homeless per 100,000

Finland: 7877 / 5363000 => 147 homeless per 100,000

Based off of numbers from (YMMV, maybe someone can check my math):

http://www.housingfirst.fi/en/housing_first/homelessness_in_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Sta...

https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+finland+in+2010

https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+usa+in+2012

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#97

Post by jolux » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #77

jolux wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that it's not already like that for certain classes? Income mobility is historically low. Also why would people grow comfortable in their poverty? What exactly does that mean? That they've made peace with the fact that they have to choose between being dead or being broke? As long as there is poverty there will always be complaints.

Go to a poor country. See how people go about the days. It's as if there is a "place" and people "know" their place. If you don't believe in having a stationary "place" you seek more, you tell your progeny there is more, if only they try. Go, don't be like your father or mother, go make something of yourself.

Just because you don't believe in a stationary place doesn't mean you don't have one. Plenty of people may believe in the American Dream but that doesn't mean it's real. Plus even if you don't believe in upward mobility it still doesn't mean you're happy where you are. Shitty conditions are shitty conditions regardless of whether or not you think you can get out of them if that's even possible.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#98

Post by vecinu » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:36 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #50

jomamaxx wrote: post #3

60% personal income taxes after big payroll tax and 20% VAT? I don't think so.

I dunno, I feel richer in Europe than I did in California. Rent in places I like living is cheaper, and I save a good $300-$600 per month on automobile costs. I also save several thousand a year on flights to Europe, since that's pretty much where I like to vacation anyway. Also, I'm fortunate enough to work in tech which has pretty good PTO policies (for now), but my spouse does not, and 4+ weeks of vacation for her…

Could you share a little more about your transition to Europe from California? I'm interested in doing such a move myself but I'm not sure if I can justify it yet.

Were you working in SF? Where in Europe are you now? Were you making an above average salary?

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#99

Post by nickff » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

dharma1 wrote: post #83

Finn here (though lived the past 12 years in the UK). In my experience, the one thing that by far works best to enable social mobility, and that I think Nordic and some central European countries have done quite well, is free, high quality education - from primary school to university. Especially as we move further and further to knowledge based economic growth, this is crucial, not just for social mobility, but well…

There is a great deal of information (in studies and research) that shows post-secondary schooling is a good investment for the individual, but that does not mean that increasing the average amount of schooling is good for the country. A number of people are now making the argument that greater 'educational' achievement is mostly just signalling status, intelligence, socialization, and work ethic, not actually teaching people anything useful. If this view is correct, increasing the amount of education that the average citizen receives is just wasting their time (as most people do not enjoy their time in class), at great expense to them and the average taxpayer.[1]

[1] http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2014/02/why_the_college....

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#100

Post by cesarbs » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

dharma1 wrote: post #83

Finn here (though lived the past 12 years in the UK). In my experience, the one thing that by far works best to enable social mobility, and that I think Nordic and some central European countries have done quite well, is free, high quality education - from primary school to university. Especially as we move further and further to knowledge based economic growth, this is crucial, not just for social mobility, but well…

Curious: how hard is it for people to get access to free university education there?

My home country - Brazil - offers free university education, and actually our federal universities are the best in the country. While there are quotas for certain socially disadvantaged groups of people (e.g. racial quotas), the sad reality is that regular seats are taken mostly by rich kids whose parents can afford to pay them prep courses - because the admissions process is incredibly difficult. So our free higher education system ends up doing a poor job in helping upward social mobility, and people who are not well-off end up going to private colleges whose schedules allow them to work and pay for their tuition.