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The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

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Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#41

Post by voodoomagicman »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #20
robert_foss wrote: post #2

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

Social mobility measures based on income (PPP) percentiles are misleading because they don't account for the hugely different income variances between countries. In countries with low income variances like Denmark, a small change in your absolute income will be deemed "socially mobile" whereas a much larger increase absolute income in countries with high income variances like the US will be deemed as not "socially mo…

This is a good point, but I think individuals care a lot more about their percentile than you would expect - their benchmark for whether their income is 'a lot' or 'a little' is how much they see the people around them making.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#42

Post by ajmurmann »

jakub_h wrote: post #9
jomamaxx wrote: post #3

60% personal income taxes after big payroll tax and 20% VAT? I don't think so.

Maybe it's also about what it buys you? Also, https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/suo/eng/i07.a... claims it's at worst 31.75%, not 60%, and that's not even the average. Plus if you're rich, not all or even most of your wealth comes from personal income anyway, so there's that. And ~20% VAT or equivalent seems quite common over the developed world.

The "what it buys you" part is actually very interesting and probably undermeasured. I am fairly certain that the "bang for the bucket" you get from you taxes in smaller countries is much higher. Of course that's total speculation. I wonder what metrics one could use to measure return value on paid taxes and then calculate value/tax dollar paid in different countries.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#43

Post by matwood »

adamnemecek wrote: post #21
sremani wrote: post #16

Why so must fascination about a homogeneous society that has population of City of Houston? I will not take some of these articles of Scandinavian fetish any seriously any more.

Why do you think that the Nordic model can't scale?

I'm not even sure the Nordic countries themselves think their model would scale. At least in Helsinki, they also enjoy having a low cost neighbor to the south in order to go tax free shopping.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#44

Post by cplanas »

getgoingnow wrote: post #27
jomamaxx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. 'Social Mobility' cannot be compared between USA and small Euro nations. 'Social Mobility' within Denmark, a country smaller than Los Angeles, is pretty good. What if you compared 'Social Mobility' across the EU. Do you think that poor people in Croatia, Sicily and Greece are 'mobilizing' up past the Swedish middle class? No. Also - America has large ethnic groups. America is really 5 nations: Europeans, Asian…

Great point. Nordic countries and other rich European countries owe large part of their success to colonization in the past. For example, Belgium performed mass genocide in Congo, enslaved the people and stole the natural resources in the country. So, today people in Belgium live comfortably, since the modern Belgium is built on top of African slaves' pile of bones. About half of GDP of Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Finl…

> Nordic countries [...] owe large part of their success to colonization in the past.

The Nordic countries had no (or negligible) colonies. The Nordic countries are Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and Norway.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#45

Post by Retric »

aetherson wrote: post #32
Retric wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well ignoring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... United Nations (2014)[6] lists US as 12th, which is not bad. But, has been falling for a while. Norway for example seems to be ahead by ~30% despite a huge safety net. Of course by PPP we seem to be stuck at ~25: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_b...

And the lesson of Norway is: "Find a gigantic amount of oil." :P The point that the US does not have the highest GDP per capita in the world is well-taken (what it has the highest is overall GDP). But Norway's path to prosperity is not generalizable.

US actually found a ginormous amount of oil, which is a large part of why it's GDP is that high. We currently out produce Saudi Arabia and regained #1.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=m...

ED: bad math.

PS: The US problem was it got addicted to the stuff pumping most of it out early while the price was low and then stuck paying more during price spikes.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#46

Post by SixSigma »

jomamaxx wrote: post #10
SixSigma wrote: post #4

I have long argued for a non means-tested welfare state that is not a safety net but a foundation on which to build your life. Here in the UK there is much resentment to people who receive benefits. I have been someone who lived on benefits because I could, not because I needed to. I spent that time learning new skills and overall have been a net contributor. But I also know people who have no intention of personal i…

"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution." While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves. I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possi…

I've never seen poverty in developed nations like I did in Atlanta, except maybe in Aborigines of Perth, Australia.

It seems to me, although I haven't lived it, that food stamps cause more problems than cash handouts.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#47

Post by nisse72 »

jomamaxx wrote: post #13
jakub_h wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's also about what it buys you? Also, https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/suo/eng/i07.a... claims it's at worst 31.75%, not 60%, and that's not even the average. Plus if you're rich, not all or even most of your wealth comes from personal income anyway, so there's that. And ~20% VAT or equivalent seems quite common over the developed world.

32% national, 22% municipal and 8% social security = 62%. 20% payroll tax. 24% VAT. That it is 'common' does not mean it is fair. If a company has $100K allocated to pay you, $20K goes to payroll tax. Of $80K remaining, you take home 40% of that, which is $32K. Suppose 2/3 of your take home goes towards consumer goods meaning that you're paying an additional $5K on VAT ~= $25K direct take home. So for $100K salary, y…

I don't know the details for Finland, but Sweden has a similar system that works out like this:

If a company has agreed to pay you $100k, that's after any payroll tax has been paid, so they pay ~ $120k, you get (gross) $100k.

Of the remaining $100k, you pay 0 on the first ~ $2600, 31% on the portion between $2600 and $62k, 51% between $62k and $88k, and 56% above $88k. Do the math, it comes out to about $38500 in income tax.

There is no wealth tax or inheritance tax. You get free university education, free universal health care, great public transport, 480 days of parental leave (that can be split among the parents mostly how you like, and used for up to 8 years), and you get a child allowance of ~ 120 euro each month for each child until that child is 16.

Too much? Yeah right.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#48

Post by Nokinside »

jomamaxx wrote: post #13
jakub_h wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's also about what it buys you? Also, https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/suo/eng/i07.a... claims it's at worst 31.75%, not 60%, and that's not even the average. Plus if you're rich, not all or even most of your wealth comes from personal income anyway, so there's that. And ~20% VAT or equivalent seems quite common over the developed world.

32% national, 22% municipal and 8% social security = 62%. 20% payroll tax. 24% VAT. That it is 'common' does not mean it is fair. If a company has $100K allocated to pay you, $20K goes to payroll tax. Of $80K remaining, you take home 40% of that, which is $32K. Suppose 2/3 of your take home goes towards consumer goods meaning that you're paying an additional $5K on VAT ~= $25K direct take home. So for $100K salary, y…

Every Nordic country has higher median wealth than US.

http://www.middleclasspoliticaleconomist.com/2013/10/median-...

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#49

Post by IanDrake »

jacquesm wrote: post #26
jomamaxx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. 'Social Mobility' cannot be compared between USA and small Euro nations. 'Social Mobility' within Denmark, a country smaller than Los Angeles, is pretty good. What if you compared 'Social Mobility' across the EU. Do you think that poor people in Croatia, Sicily and Greece are 'mobilizing' up past the Swedish middle class? No. Also - America has large ethnic groups. America is really 5 nations: Europeans, Asian…

My friends are from all over Europe, and America, India and China. > Obviously, that's not a pragmatic statement, as poor kids from the ghetto often have no appreciation of this and simply don't work towards great outcomes - but this is the reality. Ah, it's their fault. > impossible for poor Spaniards/Greeks/Sicilians to rise to higher than the European upper middle class. I'm sure you'd argue they don't work toward…

>> Obviously, that's not a pragmatic statement, as poor kids from the ghetto often have no appreciation of this and simply don't work towards great outcomes - but this is the reality.

>Ah, it's their fault.

That's not what he said. There are many reasons for this, mostly parenting and culture.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#50

Post by CalRobert »

jomamaxx wrote: post #3

60% personal income taxes after big payroll tax and 20% VAT? I don't think so.

I dunno, I feel richer in Europe than I did in California. Rent in places I like living is cheaper, and I save a good $300-$600 per month on automobile costs. I also save several thousand a year on flights to Europe, since that's pretty much where I like to vacation anyway.

Also, I'm fortunate enough to work in tech which has pretty good PTO policies (for now), but my spouse does not, and 4+ weeks of vacation for her as well, letting us see more of the world, makes me feel wealthier than a bigger paycheck.

Oh, I'm not expected to answer emails on the weekend either. And I can cycle without fearing for my life every. damn. day - the US detests cyclists and disregards their deaths.

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