Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#21

Post by ColinWright » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

shoyer wrote: post #17

ColinWright wrote: post #2

Added in edit: Assuming it's not possible to change advisor ... You have to make a decision: Quit, or take control of your own education and finish. You will need your supervisor to deal with the administrative aspects of your degree, so you can't avoid him entirely. However, you can limit your contact with him to that role alone. However, you will need someone to supervise your academic requirements. So you need to…

> But it can be done, and if you succeed it becomes a major, major accomplishment on your CV. I agree with your advice except for this line. To be clear, a Ph.D does count as a "major, major accomplishment on your CV" (at least to the right audience). But you won't get any extra credit for putting up with a bad adviser. I am tempted to simply advise quitting, but switching to another adviser (or even sticking it out)…

    > I agree with your advice except for this
    > line ... you won't get any extra credit
    > for putting up with a bad adviser.

The value doesn't lie in putting up with a bad advisor, it lies in taking control and organising things. It lies in being in a bad situation and devising a plan to deal with it. It lies in solving a problem, accomplishing a goal, despite starting from a poor situation.

The value is in having proof that you can manage your resources and create a positive outcome.

Since several people are saying the same thing I'll add my response here:

Yes, absolutely, probably not actually the thing to put on your CV. Bu anyone who values a PhD in a candidate will appreciate the comment "As it happens I didn't get along with my supervisor, just personal chemistry as it happens, but I overcame that by taking control." I believe that for most people who knows about PhDs that is actually worth something.

To the original poster - people disagree with me, and that's worth considering. I could be wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#22

Post by arcanus » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:19 PM UTC

> I could suck it up for three more years

I would be very hesitant to assume you will be 'out in three'. Unless you are actively discussing graduation, 3 years might as well be \infty, in graduate school-land.

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#23

Post by toomim » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:25 PM UTC

I was in the same situation. Quit.

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#24

Post by jahewson » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:27 PM UTC

You should try to find a new advisor. Try seeking out other potential advisors in the department for advice on your work. Work through some task with them and if you have a good rapport, schedule another meeting with them and explain the situation. Maybe you can pivot your work in a direction that suits their expertise better.

It might be that you don't need a new advisor as much as a mentor or co-advisor from your department. That might be an easier solution politically.

Universities deal with lots of problems all the time. Figure out who the right person is to reach out to and seek them out.

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#25

Post by GlueChemist » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:28 PM UTC

I am set to finish my PhD in organic chemistry in about 6 months... I could go on for a while but, in retrospect it seems like a pretty huge mistake. (I love it and the work, but the bills are coming due, and going into the post-doc or adjunct prof pool seems like a high risk gamble to me.)

You seem to be at a point that is just about halfway. Can you master out? (you can likely apply to a different program with a masters if you really want the PhD.) You also mention that he is bad at science and funding, but good a politicing. So unless you want to be a raging socialite, it does not seem he has much to offer you.

If you do stick with it -- network heavily! This was my biggest mistake, and seems to have put a real damper on any future prospects. My other mistake was believing that STEM shortage garbage, so make sure that the degree has some actual value. Otherwise you may find yourself teaching yourself programming and looking at job threads on HN.

Good luck!

In short: probably.

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#26

Post by ludamad » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:34 PM UTC

ColinWright wrote: post #21

shoyer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it can be done, and if you succeed it becomes a major, major accomplishment on your CV. I agree with your advice except for this line. To be clear, a Ph.D does count as a "major, major accomplishment on your CV" (at least to the right audience). But you won't get any extra credit for putting up with a bad adviser. I am tempted to simply advise quitting, but switching to another adviser (or even sticking it out)…

> I agree with your advice except for this > line ... you won't get any extra credit > for putting up with a bad adviser. The value doesn't lie in putting up with a bad advisor, it lies in taking control and organising things. It lies in being in a bad situation and devising a plan to deal with it. It lies in solving a problem, accomplishing a goal, despite starting from a poor situation. The value is in having proof…

Assuming you want to even draw attention to it. Having a decent thesis is probably enough

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#27

Post by Bartweiss » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:36 PM UTC

ColinWright wrote: post #21

shoyer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it can be done, and if you succeed it becomes a major, major accomplishment on your CV. I agree with your advice except for this line. To be clear, a Ph.D does count as a "major, major accomplishment on your CV" (at least to the right audience). But you won't get any extra credit for putting up with a bad adviser. I am tempted to simply advise quitting, but switching to another adviser (or even sticking it out)…

> I agree with your advice except for this > line ... you won't get any extra credit > for putting up with a bad adviser. The value doesn't lie in putting up with a bad advisor, it lies in taking control and organising things. It lies in being in a bad situation and devising a plan to deal with it. It lies in solving a problem, accomplishing a goal, despite starting from a poor situation. The value is in having proof…

The problem, though, is that it's not the sort of positive outcome you can put on a CV or otherwise use professionally. You simply can't badmouth an advisor, which is part of the "look what I overcame" narrative. Without that you'll either be "just another PhD", or to people who know the advisor, "a PhD from that jerk". The latter might get you sympathy or antipathy, and the former will get you nothing special.

None of this to say it's not an impressive achievement, or an educational one. But in the professional sphere, it's not proof of any of those positive traits - they'll still need to be demonstrated elsewhere to trade on them.

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#28

Post by lisper » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:36 PM UTC

> it's too late to switch groups without wasting an additional 3 years

Question this assumption.

There's something that you might not be aware of: you are a valuable resource to your advisor. The Ph.D. students he graduates go on his CV. Somewhere out there is an associate professor for whom graduating an additional student could be the difference between getting tenure and not. Find that person and negotiate a better situation for yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#29

Post by bllguo » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

ColinWright wrote: post #21

shoyer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it can be done, and if you succeed it becomes a major, major accomplishment on your CV. I agree with your advice except for this line. To be clear, a Ph.D does count as a "major, major accomplishment on your CV" (at least to the right audience). But you won't get any extra credit for putting up with a bad adviser. I am tempted to simply advise quitting, but switching to another adviser (or even sticking it out)…

> I agree with your advice except for this > line ... you won't get any extra credit > for putting up with a bad adviser. The value doesn't lie in putting up with a bad advisor, it lies in taking control and organising things. It lies in being in a bad situation and devising a plan to deal with it. It lies in solving a problem, accomplishing a goal, despite starting from a poor situation. The value is in having proof…

It's a big achievement, of course. But on your CV? No. I fail to see how you could convey the lengths you went to in dealing with a bad adviser in a brief, tactful way on a CV. Nor would I want to; seems like it could easily backfire.

Re: Ask HN: Should I quit graduate school to avoid a bad advisor?

#30

Post by BDGC » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:38 PM UTC

I switched advisors in my fourth year of a neuroscience PhD. I distinctly recall wondering if it was worth burning 2+ years in a different lab for an experience that might not be better. For me, switching labs was 100% the right decision. I'm still in science, love what I do, and I'm glad I changed even if it was "too late."

Try to distance yourself a little to get perspective. Even from a one week vacation, a month in a collaborator's lab, anything to try to remove yourself and then re-evaluate. Your advisory committee can also help, once you articulate that you're considering leaving.