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3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

additivepartdesign.com

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Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#31

Post by bonzini »

onion2k wrote: post #27
jib wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are freaking expensive. I think that is something that you miss easily. 200k sounds expensive for a printer, yet that is the cost of 1 guy for three years (assuming western country). The 200k machine just has to be a small bit better than the 2500 machine for it to pay off so fast it is ridiculous. A commodity approach to printing sounds like it would involve a lot of quality checks and other really pricy manu…

The 200k machine just has to be a small bit better than the 2500 machine for it to pay off so fast it is ridiculous. A commodity approach to printing sounds like it would involve a lot of quality checks and other really pricy manual things that would eat up that 200k in under a year. Owning the 200k machine has to be better than owning 80 of the cheaper machines for it to be better. In a lot of scenarios that will be…

> Owning the 200k machine has to be better than owning 80 of the cheaper machines

No, his point was that with the cheaper printer you might need to hire one guy to look after the quirks of the 2500 machine and customize each part so that it works fine with the cheaper machine. If the 200k lasts more than 3 years, it's already paid for itself, because after 3 years the cheaper machine would cost you 2500 for the printer and 200k for the guy.

Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#32

Post by pipio21 »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #7

I enjoyed this article, but perhaps not for the reasons the author hoped. This quote, "With some tweaks to my G code and use of a nozzle that is more suited for higher resolution prints I am confident that I could produce a part that would be very close to the quality of the Stratasys produced part." really summed it up. It sums to "I can tweak my setup and get this part to be good enough relative to the expensive ma…

As the article says, if you want precision and repeatability, you don't use a FDM in the first place, you will mechanize the piece.

As an engineer I use my FDM machines in order to detect "bugs" in my design, easily and cheaply. I don't need to cut a block of aluminum that volumetrically encloses the piece I want, unless I am certain the design is perfect.

The great advantage of FDM is the ability to print with support material anything, not just 2.5 D designs like normal milling. 5D milling is way more expensive and complex.

tenths of a micron in FDM? You are lucky if you get real 5 micron accuracy in a FDM printer.

I print most of my designs 2x or 3x oversized to really understand the prototypes. In the end I will use SLA machines lost wax and machining to finish the process.

Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#33

Post by ansgri »

jacquesm wrote: post #29
willvarfar wrote: post #22

I have never seen a 3D printer, although I have seen a model (of a house plan) made with a 3D printer. You folks who live near civilization and 'make' communities are so lucky! :) Are there any 3D printers that integrate a milling machine? I imagine a machine that prints the model slightly oversize, milling and then perhaps finally warming the surface to polish it, all as it goes... I would love to have access to a h…

> Are there any 3D printers that integrate a milling machine? No, and there likely never will be. Why would you wait for hours to then still have to mill down your final product when all the advantages of 3D printing are then lost and all the advantages of milling are lost? The advantages of 3D printing are that as an additive process it will work in many environments where a subtractive process would not, the advant…

Actually, there is: http://us.dmgmori.com/products/lasertec/lasertec-additiveman...

"By combining both, additive manufacturing via powder nozzle and the traditional cutting method in one machine, totally new applications and geometries are possible."

Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#34

Post by GnarfGnarf »

3D printing, especially hobbyist machines, is still in its infancy and produces disappointing results. A large flat piece warps. The resolution is coarse. It takes too long to produce even a simple piece. The machine needs constant monitoring. It's at the equivalent of the DOS stage of personal computing.

I wrote code to produce STL files. These files are accepted by hobbyist printers. I sent it to a professional shop, they complained one of my triangles wasn't closed, couldn't fix it or tell me which it was. Wonderful.

Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#35

Post by jacquesm »

ansgri wrote: post #33
jacquesm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there any 3D printers that integrate a milling machine? No, and there likely never will be. Why would you wait for hours to then still have to mill down your final product when all the advantages of 3D printing are then lost and all the advantages of milling are lost? The advantages of 3D printing are that as an additive process it will work in many environments where a subtractive process would not, the advant…

Actually, there is: http://us.dmgmori.com/products/lasertec/lasertec-additiveman... "By combining both, additive manufacturing via powder nozzle and the traditional cutting method in one machine, totally new applications and geometries are possible."

Wow. Thank you for proving me wrong and finding that.

> totally new applications and geometries are possible

It'd be nice to have some concrete examples of those.

Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#36

Post by willvarfar »

jacquesm wrote: post #29
willvarfar wrote: post #22

I have never seen a 3D printer, although I have seen a model (of a house plan) made with a 3D printer. You folks who live near civilization and 'make' communities are so lucky! :) Are there any 3D printers that integrate a milling machine? I imagine a machine that prints the model slightly oversize, milling and then perhaps finally warming the surface to polish it, all as it goes... I would love to have access to a h…

> Are there any 3D printers that integrate a milling machine? No, and there likely never will be. Why would you wait for hours to then still have to mill down your final product when all the advantages of 3D printing are then lost and all the advantages of milling are lost? The advantages of 3D printing are that as an additive process it will work in many environments where a subtractive process would not, the advant…

I was thinking of smooth curves.

Judging from the photos, even the expensive print has a voxelized appearance. I've certainly seen that in the one 3D print I've handled too.

So my idea was to print slightly oversize, then mill and polish for perfect curves.

Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#37

Post by 3dprinted »

Neat project comparing FDM.

Now, let's be a little more fair and start looking at what production companies will be buying:

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/printers/3d-printers.html

http://www.stratasys.com/3d-printers/production-series

No contest. Having multiple hundreds of thousands of colors, properties (like heat-resistance, flexibility, different opacity), various different materials, automated easily removable supports, decent precision, and serious speed beats the shit out of your desktop model any day of the week. Sorry.

Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#38

Post by ahoka »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #7

I enjoyed this article, but perhaps not for the reasons the author hoped. This quote, "With some tweaks to my G code and use of a nozzle that is more suited for higher resolution prints I am confident that I could produce a part that would be very close to the quality of the Stratasys produced part." really summed it up. It sums to "I can tweak my setup and get this part to be good enough relative to the expensive ma…

"It sums to "I can tweak my setup and get this part to be good enough relative to the expensive machine." and that is great. What is missing is it is every friggin' part. Seriously, all of the $2,000 printers have quirks that hit based on part geometry, especially in ABS. Part too long? need to add hold down tabs to prevent warping. Too many overhangs? extra supports. Too long a tool travel? Up the hotend temperature so that the extruded material doesn't cool down to much."

This is called 'mechanical engineering'. :-)

Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#39

Post by jacquesm »

willvarfar wrote: post #36
jacquesm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there any 3D printers that integrate a milling machine? No, and there likely never will be. Why would you wait for hours to then still have to mill down your final product when all the advantages of 3D printing are then lost and all the advantages of milling are lost? The advantages of 3D printing are that as an additive process it will work in many environments where a subtractive process would not, the advant…

I was thinking of smooth curves. Judging from the photos, even the expensive print has a voxelized appearance. I've certainly seen that in the one 3D print I've handled too. So my idea was to print slightly oversize, then mill and polish for perfect curves.

That would have to be a pretty fancy mill then. Any kind of overhang and you won't be able to re-work it without a 5 axis job.

And yes, you've caught on to one of the big issues with low cost 3d printers: surface finish.

Re: 3D Printer Comparison: $200,000 vs. $2500

#40

Post by drawnwren »

baq wrote: post #14
ChuckMcM wrote: post #7

I enjoyed this article, but perhaps not for the reasons the author hoped. This quote, "With some tweaks to my G code and use of a nozzle that is more suited for higher resolution prints I am confident that I could produce a part that would be very close to the quality of the Stratasys produced part." really summed it up. It sums to "I can tweak my setup and get this part to be good enough relative to the expensive ma…

i haven't ever used or owned a 3d printer and this part >This quote, "With some tweaks to my G code and use of a nozzle that is more suited for higher resolution prints I am confident that I could produce a part that would be very close to the quality of the Stratasys produced part." really summed it up. It sums to "I can tweak my setup and get this part to be good enough relative to the expensive machine." and that…

There are tools out there that address your specific complaint re: software repeatability. A combination of Ansible/Emacs/Git dot files can yield a consistent environment across machines. Howard Abrams has some great material on how he does this with Emacs (howardism.org).
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