NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent • Hacker News Board

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#201

Post by mahranch » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

devy wrote: post #141

mahranch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think his point was that we should loosen our restrictions, but re-direct our attention on the biggest abusers. Right now that's China. And it's not even close. You would need to combine the emissions of the U.S, India and the entirety of the European Union to equal China's annual CO2 emissions. See for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... Basically, China emits as much CO…

I think it's safe to say human activities is the biggest cause of carbon emission increase in the last few hundred years. Given that, let's get the facts straight: - China has 1.382 billion people, India is a close second with 1.327 billion people and United States is a distant 3rd with 324 million people [1] - Since human activities are the major factor of carbon emission increase. Let's talk a look at the emission…

Except India's CO2 emissions are less than a third of China's, despite having more people. End of story really. Per capita is a nonsense argument by someone trying to win on technicalities. Unfortunately, "the earth" doesn't care how many people a particular country has, it makes no difference to the environment.

It might make a difference if they were actually using the C02 to do something worthwhile, instead they're using it to make goods to sell for a profit. It's about profit and has nothing to do with China being an developing/industrial country new to the game.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#202

Post by mahranch » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 3:52 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #144

mahranch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think his point was that we should loosen our restrictions, but re-direct our attention on the biggest abusers. Right now that's China. And it's not even close. You would need to combine the emissions of the U.S, India and the entirety of the European Union to equal China's annual CO2 emissions. See for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... Basically, China emits as much CO…

China emits all of this CO2, because the US and the EU moved most of their manufacturing to it. This cooks the greenhouse gas books, but at the end of the day, the planet doesn't care. You can't have a non-polluting China, and cheap crap at Wal-Mart.

So you're trying to blame the west? As if China cannot simply decide to clean the air before it leaves their factories? Are western businesses putting guns to the Chinese factory-owner's heads? I think not. They're in it for the profit and know full well what they're doing.

China is a country capable of deciding what it wants for itself. If it wants to be a factory, then that's what it will be. It's "grown up" enough to make its own decisions and be held accountable for them. Blaming the west is just that; trying to redirect the blame.

I say good, let manufacturing move back to the countries they came from. Let them operate under actual regulations. It will be slightly more expense, maybe, but the air will be cleaner. That would require China to do its job and enforce environmental regulations. Which they're not willing to do because profits... So no, the west gets none of the blame here. It's 100% China. If a gang war broke out over drug dealing spots, would you blame the drug user for the violence? Of course you wouldn't. The dealers are the ones responsible. They have free will and can choose to be violent, non-violent, or not deal at all.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#203

Post by jessriedel » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 4:29 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #199

jessriedel wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Beijing is fairly wealthy these days, yet is still polluted like crazy....The reason it persists is because the the costs of cleaning it up are concentrated on a few, while the costs of being exposed are distributed among many, and there's no mechanism to push those costs back onto the responsible parties. I don't know the details, but I suspect my explanation is better. Chinese per capita GDP is $6.8k, which is the…

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Beijing , Beijing's per-capita GDP in 2013 was $15,000 nominal and $22,000 PPP. It's probably a fair bit higher today. That's more like 1990 USA, not 1940.

OK, but I think major cities in the US had much larger GDP per capita than the nation as a whole too, both in 1940 and 1990. It's also not clear to me that PPP is the relevant metric here; low cost of consumer prices does not necessarily translate into cheap factory cleaning tech even if it does mean folks will be willing to pay more for clean air. Furthermore, it's not surprising that factory technology may lag economic growth more in China since China is growing faster than the US.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#204

Post by eatbitseveryday » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 6:46 PM UTC

internaut wrote: post #196

eatbitseveryday wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cheap disposable surgical masks as a backup strategy. They won't prevent the air being polluted but they will still filter the tiny particulates in the air that cause so many problems. This is such a common misconception. Surgical masks are meant to prevent the transmission of diseases by blocking blood droplets etc. from entering your mouth. They are NOT[1] intended nor capable of filtering particles from the air…

I see! HEPA filters are still a good idea I presume. If you can have plants at work/home that should help. I don't normally like TED talks but this guy seemed to have interesting information on the right kinds. https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_on_how_to_grow_your_...

I think the main challenge isn't how to filter air at home, but when you are traveling outside, e.g., buying groceries, going to work, etc.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#205

Post by RickHull » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #86

yummyfajitas wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better way to phrase the parent's comment, which doesn't deliberately obscure the point: "Dare we suggest that particulates are more important than CO2?"

The question poses a false dichotomy. We should regulate both as appropriate, with understanding of the science of how the pollution affects us. Doing so doesn't make one more important than the other.

> > "Dare we suggest that particulates are more important than CO2?"

> The question poses a false dichotomy.

Eh.. assessing relative importance does not present a dichotomy, false or otherwise.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#206

Post by exabrial » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 8:13 PM UTC

mahranch wrote: post #16

mikeash wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone living in the US who visits China every couple of years, I would really love to see China clean up their act (the pollution has become by far my #1 dislike), but I would really hate to see the US loosen pollution regulations because of some weird idea that we shouldn't bother cleaning up our air unless everybody else does too. I love the fact that when we have air quality warnings, I can't even tell the di…

I don't think his point was that we should loosen our restrictions, but re-direct our attention on the biggest abusers. Right now that's China. And it's not even close. You would need to combine the emissions of the U.S, India and the entirety of the European Union to equal China's annual CO2 emissions. See for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... Basically, China emits as much CO…

Yep, that's exactly what I was saying. But it's ok, a good downvote every once in awhile is good for the soul.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#207

Post by ptaipale » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 8:57 AM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #161

ptaipale wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is clearly not feasible. Just think about it: Right now, air quality index in central San Francisco is 15 [0]. That's "good". In central Los Angeles, it is 84, a "moderate" day [1]. Those figures are on linear scale [2]. The cities are about on an equal distance from China, and the figure for San Francisco is 18 % of that in LA. If 20 % of Los Angeles pollution would be from China, then 110 % of San Francisco ai…

It was nytimes. Sorry. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/world/asia/china-also-expo... https://pnas.altmetric.com/details/2061087#score Link to the paper. Abstract: tmospheric modeling shows that transport of the export-related Chinese pollution contributed 3-10% of annual mean surface sulfate concentrations and 0.5-1.5% of ozone over the western United States in 2006. This Chinese pollution also resulted in one extr…

"3-10 % of annual mean surface concentration over Western USA" of a single pollutant is quite a different thing from "20 % of LA smog". By several orders of magnitude.

Yes, some pollutants are measurable over Western USA, at least in areas where there are no local pollutant sources.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#208

Post by rahimnathwani » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 3:35 AM UTC

eatbitseveryday wrote: post #204

internaut wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see! HEPA filters are still a good idea I presume. If you can have plants at work/home that should help. I don't normally like TED talks but this guy seemed to have interesting information on the right kinds. https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_on_how_to_grow_your_...

I think the main challenge isn't how to filter air at home, but when you are traveling outside, e.g., buying groceries, going to work, etc.

Filtering air at home has a big impact, because:

- You have a lot of control over your home's internal environment

- You probably spend 1/3 to 1/2 your time at home

It's also challenging:

- All windows and doors must be sealed from draughts to minimise pollution coming in

- Filter machines must be regularly maintained, and filters replaced

- Windows must be opened for short periods (e.g. 20 mins) a couple of times per day, to let bad gases out, and let oxygen in

Sure, you can wear a mask in other environments, but you probably take the mask for many functions (talking with people, eating).

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#209

Post by vkou » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 4:28 PM UTC

mahranch wrote: post #202

vkou wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China emits all of this CO2, because the US and the EU moved most of their manufacturing to it. This cooks the greenhouse gas books, but at the end of the day, the planet doesn't care. You can't have a non-polluting China, and cheap crap at Wal-Mart.

So you're trying to blame the west? As if China cannot simply decide to clean the air before it leaves their factories? Are western businesses putting guns to the Chinese factory-owner's heads? I think not. They're in it for the profit and know full well what they're doing. China is a country capable of deciding what it wants for itself. If it wants to be a factory, then that's what it will be. It's "grown up" enough…

Not blame - just point out that our lifestyles are only possible because China is a large CO2 emitter. We can't have one without the other.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#210

Post by devy » Mon, Jul 11, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

mahranch wrote: post #201

devy wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's safe to say human activities is the biggest cause of carbon emission increase in the last few hundred years. Given that, let's get the facts straight: - China has 1.382 billion people, India is a close second with 1.327 billion people and United States is a distant 3rd with 324 million people [1] - Since human activities are the major factor of carbon emission increase. Let's talk a look at the emission…

Except India's CO2 emissions are less than a third of China's, despite having more people. End of story really. Per capita is a nonsense argument by someone trying to win on technicalities. Unfortunately, "the earth" doesn't care how many people a particular country has, it makes no difference to the environment. It might make a difference if they were actually using the C02 to do something worthwhile, instead they'r…

    Except India's CO2 emissions are less than a third of China's, despite having more people.

That's categorically false! India still has less population than China's despite of getting real close in recent years. It's in my previous post's references. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_populatio...

Per capita is a common sense rather because more people further developed hence more industrialization and more CO2 emission.

Along the same lines, smogs and air pollution are also part of the emission that had happened badly for the major industrial hubs in the western world like London[1] and Los Angeles[2] in the early 20th century. Although most developed countries has realized the environmental impact of industrialization and the cost of repairing it.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_the_United_St...